Sonny Liston Ranked Above Tyson and Foreman - Why, And How?

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by Bioyhh

This is an important point that seems be often overlooked these days. Foreman's loss to Ali just devastated him. He was not the same, confident, force of nature that he was before Zaire. It fairly amazing how, ten years apart, Ali not only defeated two of the most fearsome heavyweights in history, but he crushed them mentally in doing so. To his immense credit, Foreman recovered from his humiliation and rebuilt his reputation. It's a remarkable story. H2H pre-Rumble George puts Sonny to sleep, I think. Post-Rumble, but pre-retirement, I think Sonny could have stood a fair chance of knocking George out. Sonny and Tyson present a fascinating prime H2H possibility. One of them would be counted out, but which one? A coin toss I'd say.

A good point. Everyone emphasizes Tyson's decline, and even Sonny's fall to abyss. But George seems to get zero slack Post Ali, and you will even get people talk about the Young fight as if this is the same Foreman. But the Frazier he beat was a different man. Foreman gets discredited, underrated, and over-criticized far more often than he should compared to the other fighters. He loses to Ali, the GOAT. And then after that devastation he loses to Young. Basically because of this George loses to every boxer/mover. Liston's fall or fights with Ali mean almost nothing to some people. And Tyson's fall to Douglas and Holyfield really doesn't matter because it was a way past it Tyson. It's all very selective.

[ripcity]

Originally Posted by ripcity

He's bettter than them.

sorry I thought this was about Tyson being ranked higher than Liston and Foreman. I will go back to learning how to read good.

[latineg]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Not a contradiction, you're just not intelligent enough to realize this. I'm saying maybe I do when talking to you, but if I do it's not something I'm aware of (Hence the idea of what you're talking about).

Stop trolling in my fucking thread.

your not "aware" of what your saying and your saying "maybe"

listen itz not my problem your so confused

[ironchamp]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

A good point. Everyone emphasizes Tyson's decline, and even Sonny's fall to abyss. But George seems to get zero slack Post Ali, and you will even get people talk about the Young fight as if this is the same Foreman. But the Frazier he beat was a different man. Foreman gets discredited, underrated, and over-criticized far more often than he should compared to the other fighters. He loses to Ali, the GOAT. And then after that devastation he loses to Young. Basically because of this George loses to every boxer/mover. Liston's fall or fights with Ali mean almost nothing to some people. And Tyson's fall to Douglas and Holyfield really doesn't matter because it was a way past it Tyson. It's all very selective.

Actually Foreman gets more of a pass for losing to Ali in his prime than Tyson does against Holyfield.

And you're right. its very selective

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by ironchamp

Actually Foreman gets more of a pass for losing to Ali in his prime than Tyson does against Holyfield.

And you're right. its very selective

Yes, because Ali's the GOAT and Holyfield was seen as shot while Tyson was 4 years younger and the strong favorite.

[ironchamp]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Yes, because Ali's the GOAT and Holyfield was seen as shot while Tyson was 4 years younger and the strong favorite.

In retrospect, Tyson was never really ready for Evander at the time he faced him post prison.

He came out of prison full of ring rust and went 8 non competitive rounds against fighters that offered little in response. His most competitive fight was against Mathis who showed if you read between the lines that Tyson was way off. Evander who in retrospect had alot more in the tank that most people realized saw this and capitalized on this. Tyson needed rounds, and he needed to get in with a fighter who would challenge him a bit more than Bruno, Seldon, McNeeley and Mathis did.

But Evander Holyfield was still considered a top 10 fighter up until 2002 when he lost to Byrd.

Ali may have been a great fighter but he too was considered to be past it. Remember Foreman was the betting favorite and given his destruction of Frazier and Norton many people thought that Ali would suffer a similar fate. Simply put if Foreman had beaten Ali that night like he was expected to then we would not be calling Ali the GOAT.

If we look at the Ali Foreman fight in retrospect then why cant we look at Tyson Holyfield in retrospect? Hence why I feel Foreman gets a pass.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by GregDempsey

once again..who has liston above foreman and tyson?

I'd put him above Tyson for sure.

[ironchamp]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

I'd put him above Tyson for sure.

Tyson easily ranks ahead of Liston.

Foreman is debatable but with Liston is alot more clear.

Tyson beat more ranked contenders, More title defenses, better opposition and remained relevant to the division a longer period of time.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by ironchamp

In retrospect, Tyson was never really ready for Evander at the time he faced him post prison.

He came out of prison full of ring rust and went 8 non competitive rounds against fighters that offered little in response. His most competitive fight was against Mathis who showed if you read between the lines that Tyson was way off. Evander who in retrospect had alot more in the tank that most people realized saw this and capitalized on this.

In retrospect, of course. But at the time Duva was telling him to stop and saying he had nothing to prove. Bowe had just earlier TKOed the seemingly iron hearted and iron chinned Holyfield.

Ali may have been a great fighter but he too was considered to be past it. Remember Foreman was the betting favorite and given his destruction of Frazier and Norton many people thought that Ali would suffer a similar fate. Simply put if Foreman had beaten Ali that night like he was expected to then we would not be calling Ali the GOAT.

Of course, but Ali physically really wasn't that foregone. He still had a lot, and he was younger than the Holyfield against Tyson and was seen as someone who was at least less shot. Though, the events that occurred explained things a little differently then what people had thought or expected.

If we look at the Ali Foreman fight in retrospect then why cant we look at Tyson Holyfield in retrospect? Hence why I feel Foreman gets a pass.

We can, and I think we do. But it's not the same. Ali was the GOAT. He is and was a much more accomplished Heavyweight than Holyfield at the time, and overall as we see now. Holyfield just came off a TKO loss to Bowe and was seen as shot. Not the case, but he was 34 years old.

Tyson came off from prison but dominated the scene like we last remember. This created lots of hype.

To me, though. I think Foreman gets less of a pass with post Ali then Tyson does with post 88 or post Buster Douglas. Everyone loss has an excuse or reason for anything Tyson did after he was once invincible. For Foreman... he just sucks against boxers. His stamina blows. Nobody mentions how he didn't acclimate his body enough to PR. The fact his dumbass trainer drained him out, he changed tactics, and was mentally devastated post 74. Nobody even talks about how he changed from the Frazier fight to the Ali fight. But plenty talk about Tyson fell from a God-like Status (Spinks fight) to the abyss in 1990 against Buster Douglas.

I know you're a Tyson fan, but do you see that point a bit?