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Old 10-08-2007, 02:46 PM   #31
mr. magoo
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jowcol
Quarry came to fight, he came to slug; he couldn't box a lick unless
he was in against some journeyman; even Chuvalo was jabbing him.
Foreman might even start out jabbing Quarry; punches would be landed from both sides and early on Jerry's going to take a hell of a punch or punches, he would be hurt, he may well split wide open as well. A pre-Ali Foreman (before his brain and common sense were fried by the Ali-psyche) would have destroyed Ron Lyle inside of two one-sided rounds IMHO).
Repeat: NO WAY Quarry stands a chance against a prime George. You're right, styles make fights and Quarry's style just aint' workin' against big George.
If you continue to disagree with me, then it's just a matter of agreeing to disagree and we move on. I've always looked at this mythical matchup as a no brainer and I can't see any logic that would indicate otherwise.

best wishes;
j
I agree that George would likely take this fight, but I disagree with your claim that Quarry couldn't box a lick unless he was in with a journeyman. Quarry was definately a class boxer and a half way decent puncher as well. He defeated a lot of ranked fighters and was a deserving top 10 contender for the better part of nearly 10 years. The only reason I pick Foreman is because I can't see Quarry dusting him early like he did Shavers, nor hanging in there for 10 or 15 rounds to out point or out hustle George. He's be taking a lot of extremeley hard shots and likely cutting and swelling as each round past. Quarry however, was a better tactical fighter than George was. Although Foreman had better wins against Norton and Frazier, Quarry's list of top fighters was certainly longer. The Lyle fight was the only time in the 70's that Goerge showed that he could come back after being hurt to chalk up a win. The other two occasions ( Ali and Young ) resulted in losses. Quarry showed heart and savy more often.
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Old 10-08-2007, 02:58 PM   #32
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad Spencer
You make fun of me for saying Quarry had a steep decline in '74, and yet you come up with the excuse that Foreman's "brain was fried."

Whatever you say, pal.
Now you're patronizing me?
What did Foreman do after Ali? No rematch for sure; Ali wanted no part of that. 5 stiffs in one day? A sloppy performance against Lyle; a sloppy performance against Young? He wasn't the same but still much, much better than Jerry after his "steep decline" as you put it. But you want them in prime and that could be a late spring, early summer 73 prior to any of the above.

You're obviously one of the Quarry nut-hugger varieties; but, to be fair, I tend to be that way with Patterson, however, I am forced to accept the *****s in my hero's armor on occasion. Fact: Quarry got pummeled and ripped to shreds twice by a man who hit roughly half as hard as a prime George had much less a jaw as George, and who Jerry was unable to hurt in either fight and who Foreman destroyed. Agree to disagree and let's move on...

have a good evening;
j
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Old 10-08-2007, 03:01 PM   #33
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

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Fact: Quarry got pummeled and ripped to shreds twice by a man who hit roughly half as hard as a prime George had much less a jaw as George, and who Jerry was unable to hurt in either fight and who Foreman destroyed. Agree to disagree and let's move on...

What similarities can you think of that Joe Frazier and George Foreman shared?

Didn't Ali lose to Frazier while beating Foreman?
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Old 10-08-2007, 09:51 PM   #34
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
This is of course extremely subjective, and I'm certain to revise it extensively if redoing it again. The one selection I strongly hold to is at the top of my list. (To punctuate just how strongly I believe in that choice, check out my second pick!)

1) Earnie Shavers
2) Blank (I think Shavers was that far ahead of the rest of the pack.)
3) Sonny Liston (Because the final bout of his career was his 1970 win over Wepner, who rated Sonny's power over Foreman's, even then.)
4) George Foreman (He rang Chuvalo's bell, and had Ali pissing blood for three days.)
5) Ron Lyle (Ron floored the granite chinned Foreman early twice, and nearly knocked him out. The only reason I haven't tied Lyle with Foreman is because of George's greater consistency in stopping his opponents. But if Lyle chose to "swing for the rafters" the way Foreman usually did, then who knows? Big George said after his second career was over that Lyle hit him the hardest of any of his opponents.)
6) Mac Foster
7) Jerry Quarry (Monstrous right hand against Bodell. Outslugged Shavers, beat up Foster and Spencer, and floored Mathis in just the second round, putting the big man in survival mode for the remaining ten rounds. Ali made sure Quarry couldn't reach him at all, just as Muhammad did Cleveland Williams. Jerry knocked Norton halfway across the ring to the ropes with a first round bodyshot. Decked Foreman in sparring.)
Gerrie Coetzee (If his right didn't get broken, watch out! But power concentrated mainly in that one hand.)
9) Kallie Knoetze (Norton and Tate caught the slow starting Bobick cold. Duane had no such excuse against Knoetze. Like his "sworn enemy" Coetzee, power mostly from the right side.)
10) Joe Frazier (Three huge left hooks establish his position as an elite puncher from my perspective. The final shot when he unified the heavyweight title against Ellis, the knee buckling shot he caught Ali against the ropes with in round 11 of the FOTC, and the one downstairs which sank Quarry to the floor in their rematch.)

Honorable mention (In no particular order): Bonavena, Norton, Stander (made Frazier prove he could win when conceding territory), Cleveland Williams (finished his career during this decade), Roy Williams (possibly the most avoided contender of his era), Duane Bobick (Dropped rugged Scott Ledoux twice in their rematch. In the Frenchman's very next bout, he would draw with soon-to-be Ali conquerer Leon Spinks. Bobick floored Larry Holmes as an amateur. Could be very dangerous if let out of the first couple rounds.)

Gerry Cooney (In revising this, I might well place Gerry in the top ten. He dropped Dino Dennis before the decade ended.) Muhammad Ali (His left hook against Ringo was a wrecking ball. The hardest right hand of his career floored Foreman for the count, something nobody else ever came close to doing to George. He beat down Wepner hard enough to have Chuck down for the count. Had somewhat sensitive hands which required novocaine injections before he used his fists, but cound be deadly when he loaded up with bad intentions.) Jimmy Ellis (The day after his first match with Frazier, Quarry named Ellis as the harder puncher of the two. Ellis did drop Bonavena twice, decked Boone Kirkman in the first round, and took out Leotis Martin in the previous decade.)

Larry Holmes (During this decade, Larry scored a one punch knockout with a right cross to Tomato Evangelista's neck. Though Evangelista's entire 78 bout career, only three other opponents would take him out: Leon Spinks in his career best performance, Greg Page at his undefeated peak, and Anders Eklund at the end of Tomato's career. Holmes also flattened and took out undefeated future WBA CW champion Ossie Ocasio with his jab, looking a good deal more like Liston than Ali in the process. Finally, it was during this decade that Larry secured his title defense win over Weaver with a single right uppercut. Shortly, Hercules would stand up to everything Big John Tate and Coetzee could dish out into the championship rounds. Holmes had a lot of arm problems which compromised his power against Norton, as well as later in his career, but started his long reign by stopping his first eight title challengers.)
Thanks. But could you elaborate on having Frazier so low?
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Old 10-09-2007, 08:22 AM   #35
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

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Originally Posted by Thad Spencer
Umm, I do, asswipe.
Our "debate" is now finished with that tidbit.

Good luck;
j
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Old 10-09-2007, 04:22 PM   #36
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

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Originally Posted by Blacc Jesus
Thanks. But could you elaborate on having Frazier so low?
I was surprised myself as I compiled this list, and as I stated, this is certainly subject to revision. Tough calls were made in this process.

Joe didn't have a great right hand, and he didn't usually produce the sort of clean one punch knockout that Coetzee sometimes carried off. It was a very close call between Knoezte's right and Frazier's left, but Kallie's staggering early round knockout percentage within the decade persuaded me to tentatively lean towards him.

Quarry was a faster starter and dangerous with both fists. For all his reputation as a great hooker, his right hand against Bodell was more impressive to me than Joe's hook against Bob Foster and Ziggy. Jerry also stood his ground more than Smoke, with his counterpunching magnifying the impact of his blows. That sort of counterpunching can be more devastating than Joe's brand of mobile blitzkrieg swarming. Until Joe Alexander, round one almost always belonged to Quarry.

Mac Foster's knockout record was simply too staggering to ignore, but his name is one I could wind up deleting entirely at another time. I must confess that I'm not quite as informed about him as I ought to be.

What are the knocks on Joe's power? Well, he nailed Foreman in their rematch, and failed to budge George. Bonavena took everything he had in 25 rounds of combat. He failed to drop Chuvalo, and couldn't finish off Bugner after dropping him. (In fact, Smoke was nearly decked himself after Bugner got back to his feet.) He probably hit Ali more than all of Muhammad's other amateur and professional opponents combined, yet couldn't put him away, and only dropped him once. He dropped Jimmy Ellis twice in devastating fashion, but couldn't keep him down. He busted up Stander, but didn't have the firepower to bring him down or knock him back.

Coetzee, Quarry, Knoetze and Mac Foster are extremely close calls for me over Frazier, and on a different day, I might well leapfrog Joe over all of them. It's also a strong possibility that I would place Cooney above Frazier in the process of doing so. (Ditto Bonavena. I'm just not certain.)

For me, Joe Frazier was more of an attrition swarmer than a power puncher. It doesn't matter how hard somebody punches if they don't hit the target in the first place, and Frazier was considerably more successful than Quarry at reaching Ali. But in doing so, he had to have sacrificed some power in the process.

Now, if you were to hold a gun to my head, and insist I fill in the blank, I could have any combination of Lyle, Cooney, Foreman, Liston and Frazier round out my top five below Shavers.

You tossed out an extremely challenging question, one I tried to answer as best I could, off the cuff. (Am I the only one willing to stick their neck out in answering this one?)

Joe Frazier is a top five all-time heavyweight in my book, sometimes top four. (Dempsey, Louis, Ali and Holmes are my others. I tend to alternate Frazier with Louis at number four.)
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Old 10-09-2007, 04:33 PM   #37
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
I was surprised myself as I compiled this list, and as I stated, this is certainly subject to revision. Tough calls were made in this process.

Joe didn't have a great right hand, and he didn't usually produce the sort of clean one punch knockout that Coetzee sometimes carried off. It was a very close call between Knoezte's right and Frazier's left, but Kallie's staggering early round knockout percentage within the decade persuaded me to tentatively lean towards him.

Quarry was a faster starter and dangerous with both fists. For all his reputation as a great hooker, his right hand against Bodell was more impressive to me than Joe's hook against Bob Foster and Ziggy. Jerry also stood his ground more than Smoke, with his counterpunching magnifying the impact of his blows. That sort of counterpunching can be more devastating than Joe's brand of mobile blitzkrieg swarming. Until Joe Alexander, round one almost always belonged to Quarry.

Mac Foster's knockout record was simply too staggering to ignore, but his name is one I could wind up deleting entirely at another time. I must confess that I'm not quite as informed about him as I ought to be.

What are the knocks on Joe's power? Well, he nailed Foreman in their rematch, and failed to budge George. Bonavena took everything he had in 25 rounds of combat. He failed to drop Chuvalo, and couldn't finish off Bugner after dropping him. (In fact, Smoke was nearly decked himself after Bugner got back to his feet.) He probably hit Ali more than all of Muhammad's other amateur and professional opponents combined, yet couldn't put him away, and only dropped him once. He dropped Jimmy Ellis twice in devastating fashion, but couldn't keep him down. He busted up Stander, but didn't have the firepower to bring him down or knock him back.

Coetzee, Quarry, Knoetze and Mac Foster are extremely close calls for me over Frazier, and on a different day, I might well leapfrog Joe over all of them. It's also a strong possibility that I would place Cooney above Frazier in the process of doing so. (Ditto Bonavena. I'm just not certain.)

For me, Joe Frazier was more of an attrition swarmer than a power puncher. It doesn't matter how hard somebody punches if they don't hit the target in the first place, and Frazier was considerably more successful than Quarry at reaching Ali. But in doing so, he had to have sacrificed some power in the process.

Now, if you were to hold a gun to my head, and insist I fill in the blank, I could have any combination of Lyle, Cooney, Foreman, Liston and Frazier round out my top five below Shavers.

You tossed out an extremely challenging question, one I tried to answer as best I could, off the cuff. (Am I the only one willing to stick their neck out in answering this one?)

Joe Frazier is a top five all-time heavyweight in my book, sometimes top four. (Dempsey, Louis, Ali and Holmes are my others. I tend to alternate Frazier with Louis at number four.)
Great post. I have a much better understanding on your picks now.

Also, any more info on Mac Foster? I never hear too much about him, but his record is amazing.
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Old 10-09-2007, 04:39 PM   #38
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

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Originally Posted by Thad Spencer
Also, Foreman was knocked out by Ali and floored by feather-fisted Jimmy Young. Good chin, huh?
That was because he had punched himself out it had nothing to do with his chin.
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Old 10-09-2007, 05:03 PM   #39
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
This is of course extremely subjective, and I'm certain to revise it extensively if redoing it again. The one selection I strongly hold to is at the top of my list. (To punctuate just how strongly I believe in that choice, check out my second pick!)

1) Earnie Shavers
2) Blank (I think Shavers was that far ahead of the rest of the pack.)
3) Sonny Liston (Because the final bout of his career was his 1970 win over Wepner, who rated Sonny's power over Foreman's, even then.)
4) George Foreman (He rang Chuvalo's bell, and had Ali pissing blood for three days.)
5) Ron Lyle (Ron floored the granite chinned Foreman early twice, and nearly knocked him out. The only reason I haven't tied Lyle with Foreman is because of George's greater consistency in stopping his opponents. But if Lyle chose to "swing for the rafters" the way Foreman usually did, then who knows? Big George said after his second career was over that Lyle hit him the hardest of any of his opponents.)
6) Mac Foster
7) Jerry Quarry (Monstrous right hand against Bodell. Outslugged Shavers, beat up Foster and Spencer, and floored Mathis in just the second round, putting the big man in survival mode for the remaining ten rounds. Ali made sure Quarry couldn't reach him at all, just as Muhammad did Cleveland Williams. Jerry knocked Norton halfway across the ring to the ropes with a first round bodyshot. Decked Foreman in sparring.)
Gerrie Coetzee (If his right didn't get broken, watch out! But power concentrated mainly in that one hand.)
9) Kallie Knoetze (Norton and Tate caught the slow starting Bobick cold. Duane had no such excuse against Knoetze. Like his "sworn enemy" Coetzee, power mostly from the right side.)
10) Joe Frazier (Three huge left hooks establish his position as an elite puncher from my perspective. The final shot when he unified the heavyweight title against Ellis, the knee buckling shot he caught Ali against the ropes with in round 11 of the FOTC, and the one downstairs which sank Quarry to the floor in their rematch.)

Honorable mention (In no particular order): Bonavena, Norton, Stander (made Frazier prove he could win when conceding territory), Cleveland Williams (finished his career during this decade), Roy Williams (possibly the most avoided contender of his era), Duane Bobick (Dropped rugged Scott Ledoux twice in their rematch. In the Frenchman's very next bout, he would draw with soon-to-be Ali conquerer Leon Spinks. Bobick floored Larry Holmes as an amateur. Could be very dangerous if let out of the first couple rounds.)

Gerry Cooney (In revising this, I might well place Gerry in the top ten. He dropped Dino Dennis before the decade ended.) Muhammad Ali (His left hook against Ringo was a wrecking ball. The hardest right hand of his career floored Foreman for the count, something nobody else ever came close to doing to George. He beat down Wepner hard enough to have Chuck down for the count. Had somewhat sensitive hands which required novocaine injections before he used his fists, but cound be deadly when he loaded up with bad intentions.) Jimmy Ellis (The day after his first match with Frazier, Quarry named Ellis as the harder puncher of the two. Ellis did drop Bonavena twice, decked Boone Kirkman in the first round, and took out Leotis Martin in the previous decade.)

Larry Holmes (During this decade, Larry scored a one punch knockout with a right cross to Tomato Evangelista's neck. Though Evangelista's entire 78 bout career, only three other opponents would take him out: Leon Spinks in his career best performance, Greg Page at his undefeated peak, and Anders Eklund at the end of Tomato's career. Holmes also flattened and took out undefeated future WBA CW champion Ossie Ocasio with his jab, looking a good deal more like Liston than Ali in the process. Finally, it was during this decade that Larry secured his title defense win over Weaver with a single right uppercut. Shortly, Hercules would stand up to everything Big John Tate and Coetzee could dish out into the championship rounds. Holmes had a lot of arm problems which compromised his power against Norton, as well as later in his career, but started his long reign by stopping his first eight title challengers.)
Did you know that boxing also existed in other decades than the 70's?
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Old 10-09-2007, 05:16 PM   #40
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Did you know that boxing also existed in other decades than the 70's?
I asked him to compile a list for the top 10 hardest hitters during the 70's.
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Old 10-09-2007, 06:46 PM   #41
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacc Jesus
I asked him to compile a list for the top 10 hardest hitters during the 70's.


My apologies.
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Old 10-09-2007, 07:27 PM   #42
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
This is of course extremely subjective, and I'm certain to revise it extensively if redoing it again. The one selection I strongly hold to is at the top of my list. (To punctuate just how strongly I believe in that choice, check out my second pick!)

1) Earnie Shavers
2) Blank (I think Shavers was that far ahead of the rest of the pack.)
3) Sonny Liston (Because the final bout of his career was his 1970 win over Wepner, who rated Sonny's power over Foreman's, even then.)
4) George Foreman (He rang Chuvalo's bell, and had Ali pissing blood for three days.)
5) Ron Lyle (Ron floored the granite chinned Foreman early twice, and nearly knocked him out. The only reason I haven't tied Lyle with Foreman is because of George's greater consistency in stopping his opponents. But if Lyle chose to "swing for the rafters" the way Foreman usually did, then who knows? Big George said after his second career was over that Lyle hit him the hardest of any of his opponents.)
6) Mac Foster
7) Jerry Quarry (Monstrous right hand against Bodell. Outslugged Shavers, beat up Foster and Spencer, and floored Mathis in just the second round, putting the big man in survival mode for the remaining ten rounds. Ali made sure Quarry couldn't reach him at all, just as Muhammad did Cleveland Williams. Jerry knocked Norton halfway across the ring to the ropes with a first round bodyshot. Decked Foreman in sparring.)
Gerrie Coetzee (If his right didn't get broken, watch out! But power concentrated mainly in that one hand.)
9) Kallie Knoetze (Norton and Tate caught the slow starting Bobick cold. Duane had no such excuse against Knoetze. Like his "sworn enemy" Coetzee, power mostly from the right side.)
10) Joe Frazier (Three huge left hooks establish his position as an elite puncher from my perspective. The final shot when he unified the heavyweight title against Ellis, the knee buckling shot he caught Ali against the ropes with in round 11 of the FOTC, and the one downstairs which sank Quarry to the floor in their rematch.)

Honorable mention (In no particular order): Bonavena, Norton, Stander (made Frazier prove he could win when conceding territory), Cleveland Williams (finished his career during this decade), Roy Williams (possibly the most avoided contender of his era), Duane Bobick (Dropped rugged Scott Ledoux twice in their rematch. In the Frenchman's very next bout, he would draw with soon-to-be Ali conquerer Leon Spinks. Bobick floored Larry Holmes as an amateur. Could be very dangerous if let out of the first couple rounds.)

Gerry Cooney (In revising this, I might well place Gerry in the top ten. He dropped Dino Dennis before the decade ended.) Muhammad Ali (His left hook against Ringo was a wrecking ball. The hardest right hand of his career floored Foreman for the count, something nobody else ever came close to doing to George. He beat down Wepner hard enough to have Chuck down for the count. Had somewhat sensitive hands which required novocaine injections before he used his fists, but cound be deadly when he loaded up with bad intentions.) Jimmy Ellis (The day after his first match with Frazier, Quarry named Ellis as the harder puncher of the two. Ellis did drop Bonavena twice, decked Boone Kirkman in the first round, and took out Leotis Martin in the previous decade.)

Larry Holmes (During this decade, Larry scored a one punch knockout with a right cross to Tomato Evangelista's neck. Though Evangelista's entire 78 bout career, only three other opponents would take him out: Leon Spinks in his career best performance, Greg Page at his undefeated peak, and Anders Eklund at the end of Tomato's career. Holmes also flattened and took out undefeated future WBA CW champion Ossie Ocasio with his jab, looking a good deal more like Liston than Ali in the process. Finally, it was during this decade that Larry secured his title defense win over Weaver with a single right uppercut. Shortly, Hercules would stand up to everything Big John Tate and Coetzee could dish out into the championship rounds. Holmes had a lot of arm problems which compromised his power against Norton, as well as later in his career, but started his long reign by stopping his first eight title challengers.)
Frazier should be higher than Quarry and your right about Holmes his power was very underrated, Norton too.
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Old 10-09-2007, 08:23 PM   #43
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

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Originally Posted by Sonny Carson
Frazier should be higher than Quarry and your right about Holmes his power was very underrated, Norton too.
I've been wondering if I shouldn't have simply tied Quarry, Frazier, Norton and Bonavena together, but that's a rather wimpy and lazy way out, one that I am indeed guilty of indulging in from time-to-time. Naming a top five would have been a little easier, but I wanted to try meeting the challenge given to provide a top ten listing.
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Old 10-09-2007, 08:30 PM   #44
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacc Jesus
I have a much better understanding on your picks now.

Also, any more info on Mac Foster? I never hear too much about him, but his record is amazing.
The only footage I've viewed of him was in his losing efforts against Quarry and Ali. Evidently, he was described as the second coming of Joe Louis while an undefeated prospect, supposedly dragging his right foot in similar fashion. But again, viewing one of his performances in a winning effort would definitely be more revealing. One of Ali's most overlooked wins, probably because of the way Quarry had previously taken him out.
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Old 10-11-2007, 01:30 AM   #45
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Default Re: Ron Lyle...

Some of the fights where Lyle failed to score kayoes or lost do not seem to indicate lack of power due to the great durability of his opponnents. Bonavena was only stopped once in his career, and that was in the 15th round. Ali was very durable and the same is true of Bugner. Guys lasted the distance with Tyson and Lewis as well.
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