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Old 10-11-2007, 07:13 AM   #46
Mendoza
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
You dont need glasses you need a white stick.

To beat Johnson with.

And to stick up Jeffries arse and raise him higher and higher.

If I really wanted to raise Jeffries up higher and higher, I speak of Johnson in unrealistic misty eyed terms they way you do. This way Jeffries lost to superior all time #2 heavyweight. Does this make sense to you McVey?


But I am objective, and I don't think Johnson was anywhere near that good. I have shown the board why rather convincingly. As for Ali, heís my #1 too. We have that in common! However, I do think Ali was lucky to win some of his fights, and I examine them with the same objectivity. See how easy that is? Just take off those glasses, watch the films, read news clippings, study the ages and experience level of when the fights happened and embrace the truth. It's not too hard.

Liking a fighter and fairly ranking him are two different things. For example, I think Aurto Gatti is one of the most exciting fighters of our generation. Yet Aurto wasn't an all time great in my book. I like him a lot, but remain reasonable about his chances vs the best.
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Old 10-11-2007, 07:24 AM   #47
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Hi Mendoza,

You make a great point - Example, many boxing fans like
Rocky Graziano, though I don't think that he belongs in the top
5 middleweight category.

BTW, if Jack Johnson fought HARRY WILLS instead of Willard,
1) Do you think that Wills (in 1915) would have been experienced
enough at that point to beat Johnson?;
2) As far as styles go, would a big strong good boxing heayweight
like Wills be the type of fighter to beat Jack?

I think that Gunboat Smith might have really extended Jack, say if
they fought in 1913/1914.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
If I really wanted to raise Jeffries up higher and higher, I speak of Johnson in unrealistic misty eyed terms they way you do. This way Jeffries lost to superior all time #2 heavyweight. Does this make sense to you McVey?


But I am objective, and I don't think Johnson was anywhere near that good. I have shown the board why rather convincingly. As for Ali, heís my #1 too. We have that in common! However, I do think Ali was lucky to win some of his fights, and I examine them with the same objectivity. See how easy that is? Just take off those glasses, watch the films, read news clippings, study the ages and experience level of when the fights happened and embrace the truth. It's not too hard.

Liking a fighter and fairly ranking him are two different things. For example, I think Aurto Gatti is one of the most exciting fighters of our generation. Yet Aurto wasn't an all time great in my book. I like him a lot, but remain reasonable about his chances vs the best.
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Old 10-11-2007, 07:34 AM   #48
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
If I really wanted to raise Jeffries up higher and higher, I speak of Johnson in unrealistic misty eyed terms they way you do. This way Jeffries lost to superior all time #2 heavyweight. Does this make sense to you McVey?


But I am objective, and I don't think Johnson was anywhere near that good. I have shown the board why rather convincingly. As for Ali, heís my #1 too. We have that in common! However, I do think Ali was lucky to win some of his fights, and I examine them with the same objectivity. See how easy that is? Just take off those glasses, watch the films, read news clippings, study the ages and experience level of when the fights happened and embrace the truth. It's not too hard.

Liking a fighter and fairly ranking him are two different things. For example, I think Aurto Gatti is one of the most exciting fighters of our generation. Yet Aurto wasn't an all time great in my book. I like him a lot, but remain reasonable about his chances vs the best.
I dont "like " Jack Johnson,I think he was a pretty objectionable human being,he beat women,was extrememly vain,dishonest,untrustworthy,and could be cruel,I rate him as I do because thats where I think he belongs,Fleischer rated him higher!,and before you attack him again ,remember ,he put Jeffries at no 2,so if you make a cas for old Nat being biased ,you are tearing down your god,old bigoted Jeff,who bet$5000,on Fitz at odds of 10/6 to beat himself in their first fight,on the grounds he was covering "allbets"..Stop cherry picking incidents,anyone can make a case ,being selective about a fighters career,Ali gets beat by a fighter with only 7 pro bouts,knocked down by a cruiserweight ,Cooper,and a journeyman ,Wepner.Louis is kd by a fat out of shape bartender twice,Galento,hurt by a LH who didnt have ko power at 175,Conn.Jeffries is beaten black and blue by a man who hadnt had a fight in 2 years who was 37 and7 pounds above Middleweight,,Holmes just scraped by comparative novices like Witherspoon and Williams,Dempsey was taken the decision by a fat Sailor who couldnt punch ,not once but several times ,Meehan.Isolate bouts from any fighters resume and you can spin the bottle in your favourite direction.Joe Frazier beat ONE ATG,and that guy was back from over 3 years out of the ring ,with only 18 rounds of boxing under his belt,you can go on for ever,dont you get tired? Sing another song.
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Old 10-11-2007, 08:12 AM   #49
Mendoza
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
I dont "like " Jack Johnson,I think he was a pretty objectionable human being,he beat women,was extrememly vain,dishonest,untrustworthy,and could be cruel,I rate him as I do because thats where I think he belongs,Fleischer rated him higher!,and before you attack him again ,remember ,he put Jeffries at no 2,so if you make a cas for old Nat being biased ,you are tearing down your god,old bigoted Jeff,who bet$5000,on Fitz at odds of 10/6 to beat himself in their first fight,on the grounds he was covering "allbets"..Stop cherry picking incidents,anyone can make a case ,being selective about a fighters career,Ali gets beat by a fighter with only 7 pro bouts,knocked down by a cruiserweight ,Cooper,and a journeyman ,Wepner.Louis is kd by a fat out of shape bartender twice,Galento,hurt by a LH who didnt have ko power at 175,Conn.Jeffries is beaten black and blue by a man who hadnt had a fight in 2 years who was 37 and7 pounds above Middleweight,,Holmes just scraped by comparative novices like Witherspoon and Williams,Dempsey was taken the decision by a fat Sailor who couldnt punch ,not once but several times ,Meehan.Isolate bouts from any fighters resume and you can spin the bottle in your favourite direction.Joe Frazier beat ONE ATG,and that guy was back from over 3 years out of the ring ,with only 18 rounds of boxing under his belt,you can go on for ever,dont you get tired? Sing another song.
Nat and Jack were friends. Friends tend to over rate friends. I always laugh when they ask a trainer to or manager to rate his fighters. Is this the crutch you using?

I suppose if you think Nat is spot, on that Fitzsimmons is your #3 all time heavyweight too. And Corbett is what, #5?! Jeffries is 4-0, 4 KO's vs two of Nat's all time top five heavies. No other man on the list can come close to saying that. Johnson old beat the shell of Jeffries, and since Nat and Jack had an Ali and Cosell writer and fighter type of relationship, this must be Nat's friendly justification of why Johnson was the best. Just a hunch. Nat also said Jeffries beat the best competition.

And by the way, Fitz and Corbett are not in my top 15. I am objective. Try it sometime.

As to Grebfan's comment, yeah, Wills probably beats Johnson in 1915. It would not matter because Wills was probably too risky for Johnson to fight. Willard wasn't much of a boxer. He was big and slow, which is why Johnson probably risked the fight. Willard in my opinion was the most formidable fighter Johnson gave a title shot to. Oh, and the fight is completely mis understood. Johnson was not up 25-0 before getting knocked out. The fight was close to even. It was a tale of two fights. Johnson in control until round 15 or so, then Willard took command from rounds 16 to finish. Maybe Willard one 1-2 early rounds, and Johnson won 1-2 late rounds. Try reading the full round by round sometime or watching the near full fight. Other bogus claims about this fight were the heat was 105? Really? The weather archives don't say that. And Johnson’s dive claim is hilarious too. Just like his claim of injuring his arm in round three vs Jim Johnson, when the entire crowd saw the injury in round ten!

Other foot notes: Corbett did not do well vs Jeffries in the second fight. You are wrong.

Witherpsoon is 5x the fighter of the lesser fighters who gave Johnson trouble.

Ali and Dempsey had some issues, but they had far less than Johnson.

School is out. I have work to do. Up next for you is paragraph formation, then some more news reads.
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Old 10-11-2007, 08:39 AM   #50
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Nat and Jack were friends. Friends tend to over rate friends. I always laugh when they ask a trainer to or manager to rate his fighters. Is this the crutch you using?

I suppose if you think Nat is spot, on that Fitzsimmons is your #3 all time heavyweight too. And Corbett is what, #5?! Jeffries is 4-0, 4 KO's vs two of Nat's all time top five heavies. No other man on the list can come close to saying that. Johnson old beat the shell of Jeffries, and since Nat and Jack had an Ali and Cosell writer and fighter type of relationship, this must be Nat's friendly justification of why Johnson was the best. Just a hunch. Nat also said Jeffries beat the best competition.

And by the way, Fitz and Corbett are not in my top 15. I am objective. Try it sometime.

As to Grebfan's comment, yeah, Wills probably beats Johnson in 1915. It would not matter because Wills was probably too risky for Johnson to fight. Willard wasn't much of a boxer. He was big and slow, which is why Johnson probably risked the fight. Willard in my opinion was the most formidable fighter Johnson gave a title shot to. Oh, and the fight is completely mis understood. Johnson was not up 25-0 before getting knocked out. The fight was close to even. It was a tale of two fights. Johnson in control until round 15 or so, then Willard took command from rounds 16 to finish. Maybe Willard one 1-2 early rounds, and Johnson won 1-2 late rounds. Try reading the full round by round sometime or watching the near full fight. Other bogus claims about this fight were the heat was 105? Really? The weather archives don't say that. And Johnson’s dive claim is hilarious too. Just like his claim of injuring his arm in round three vs Jim Johnson, when the entire crowd saw the injury in round ten!

Other foot notes: Corbett did not do well vs Jeffries in the second fight. You are wrong.

Witherpsoon is 5x the fighter of the lesser fighters who gave Johnson trouble.

Ali and Dempsey had some issues, but they had far less than Johnson.

School is out. I have work to do. Up next for you is paragraph formation, then some more news reads.
Jack didnt win a round against Willard ,Jess is suprememly underated,he would have whipped any of those before him,especially James Jackson jefries ,who would be at the end of his telegraph pole of a jab befor succombing,bloodied and battered to Willards mighty right uppercut.Everyone knows Jeffries carried both Corbett and Fitz ,to give the punters a show,he could have put them away anytime he wanted to.Ketchel after dropping Johnson took it easy ,as per their agreement,Johnson wouldnt have dared take on the "Michigan Assassin "in a "real fight".Langford in his fight with Johnson fell down twice without taking punches ,hit himself on the nose ,breaking it,cut his own eyebrows,and took it easy ,to build up his black "brother"Johnson,of whom he was inordinately fond.Jack Obrien won every one of the 6 rounds against Johnson,who ran away,if OBrien hadnt had 2 broken hands he would have kod Johnson.
There was nothing wrong with Johnsons arm against Jim Johnson ,he was getting the shit kicked out of him ,Jack was allways yellow he proved it by refusing to fight Jimmy Wilde Johnson got a gift decision against Frank Moran,he bribed referee Carpentier with the promise of a title shot ,which he then reneged on,[you cant trust them blacks].Tommy Burns was wunning against Johnson but began to drown in Johnsons blood and had to retire.
Joe Jeanette and Sam Mcvey were 12 ,and 14 respectively when they fought Johnson ,and both should have got at least a draw.
Bob FItzsimmons was really only 25 and in the best shape of his life when he met Jeffries,he had also ben training with mackie Silverstone and had bulked up to 220lb,plus growing another 4 inches,he also wore armour plated gloves against Jeff but not onlty couldnt hurt him Jeff didnt have a mark on him after the fight.Jack Johnson was really a White man ,thats why he wouldnt give the Black challengers a chance,his real name was Al Jolson ,and using his wonderful abilities of disguise,he went on to make a name for himself as a Black face singer,his greatest hit being "Jeff ,Jeff,Jeffries Good bye,Jeff,Jeff Jeffries ,dont cry,watch for my left watch for my right,you better watch both Jeff you gonna get a whipping tonight!"
Thats OBJECTIVITY! Now will that shut you up?
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Old 10-11-2007, 08:44 AM   #51
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Default Re: Jack Johsnon news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

@ Mcvey
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Old 10-11-2007, 10:19 AM   #52
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
The gift of logic, reason, and objectivity on Jack Johnson eludes you my friend. If you want to engage in a debate on what I said about any all time top 5 heavyweight's ranking tumbling if they lost to, had trouble beating, or drew with the guys Johnson fought, go for it!

Guys like Ali, Foreman, Louis, Dempsey, Holmes, Tyson, and Lewis in their peak years would destroy the same competition Johnson fought with shocking ease. But if they had the same results, critics would correctly question them.

If you want this debate, go for it. I suspect you will avoid it as if it were the reincarnation of the bubonic plague. I think know my points are to strong, but you just canít say it / admit it.

There may come a time when I need to borrow your rose colored glasses. Can I borrow them if I need them?
I think you are missing the point here.

Johnsons main body of work on which he is rated as an all time great runs from the George Gardiner fight to the Jim Jeffries fight. You would be verry hard put to find a heavyweight who beat a better body of oposition than this or was more consistent against it. Of particular note is the period when Johnson held the coloured heavyweight title in which his schedule was verry impresive.
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Old 10-11-2007, 07:39 PM   #53
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Hey Mendoza,

Thanks for the reply on Johnson-Wills. I agree with you on the
great points that you have made regarding Johnson. I also
think that the Willard KO was legitimate. I don't think that
Jack had the sturdiest of chins. Joe Choynski flattened him
with one left hook, and Ketchel dropped him. Guys like Al
Kaufman and Jim Flynn were VERY limited in their abilities.

I think that Sam Langford would have been tough when Johnson
was approaching his mid-thirties. Look at Langford's record of
KOing guys like Gunboat Smith and a bunch of the other White
Hopes. There were a few other Black fighters besides Langford
and Jeannette that were tough and could have given Jack a
tough time.

Grebfan9
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Nat and Jack were friends. Friends tend to over rate friends. I always laugh when they ask a trainer to or manager to rate his fighters. Is this the crutch you using?

I suppose if you think Nat is spot, on that Fitzsimmons is your #3 all time heavyweight too. And Corbett is what, #5?! Jeffries is 4-0, 4 KO's vs two of Nat's all time top five heavies. No other man on the list can come close to saying that. Johnson old beat the shell of Jeffries, and since Nat and Jack had an Ali and Cosell writer and fighter type of relationship, this must be Nat's friendly justification of why Johnson was the best. Just a hunch. Nat also said Jeffries beat the best competition.

And by the way, Fitz and Corbett are not in my top 15. I am objective. Try it sometime.

As to Grebfan's comment, yeah, Wills probably beats Johnson in 1915. It would not matter because Wills was probably too risky for Johnson to fight. Willard wasn't much of a boxer. He was big and slow, which is why Johnson probably risked the fight. Willard in my opinion was the most formidable fighter Johnson gave a title shot to. Oh, and the fight is completely mis understood. Johnson was not up 25-0 before getting knocked out. The fight was close to even. It was a tale of two fights. Johnson in control until round 15 or so, then Willard took command from rounds 16 to finish. Maybe Willard one 1-2 early rounds, and Johnson won 1-2 late rounds. Try reading the full round by round sometime or watching the near full fight. Other bogus claims about this fight were the heat was 105? Really? The weather archives don't say that. And Johnsonís dive claim is hilarious too. Just like his claim of injuring his arm in round three vs Jim Johnson, when the entire crowd saw the injury in round ten!

Other foot notes: Corbett did not do well vs Jeffries in the second fight. You are wrong.

Witherpsoon is 5x the fighter of the lesser fighters who gave Johnson trouble.

Ali and Dempsey had some issues, but they had far less than Johnson.

School is out. I have work to do. Up next for you is paragraph formation, then some more news reads.

Last edited by JimmyShimmy; 07-29-2006 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:39 AM   #54
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebfan9
Hey Mendoza,

Thanks for the reply on Johnson-Wills. I agree with you on the
great points that you have made regarding Johnson. I also
think that the Willard KO was legitimate. I don't think that
Jack had the sturdiest of chins. Joe Choynski flattened him
with one left hook, and Ketchel dropped him. Guys like Al
Kaufman and Jim Flynn were VERY limited in their abilities.

I think that Sam Langford would have been tough when Johnson
was approaching his mid-thirties. Look at Langford's record of
KOing guys like Gunboat Smith and a bunch of the other White
Hopes. There were a few other Black fighters besides Langford
and Jeannette that were tough and could have given Jack a
tough time.

Grebfan9
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Langford had also lost to Smith in 12 , a year earlier.But he would certainly have been a tough proposition for the dissipated Johnson that was bluffing his way through fights with Moran and Johnson.
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