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Old 01-05-2008, 04:48 PM   #76
Senya13
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

What are 3 best KO wins by Henry Cooper?
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Old 01-05-2008, 06:06 PM   #77
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Why don't you post some contemporary opinions about that event, what people thought about him wanting to quit when in trouble?
You think it was Ali's own decision to continue that fight, he overcame his own fears rather than having been barely persuaded by his own corner?
Obviously it WAS his own decision to continue. No-one could make him fight if he didn't want to. To believe otherwise, you would have to be a complete , blithering idiot. Read Angelo Dundee's accounts of the event. He was IN the corner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Luckily for Ali, I'd say, that there was no internet. As for media not being near as well developed, that's a funny statement.
That's a true, factual, indisputable statement. The pervasiveness, accessibility and sophistication of the media (not even counting the internet) has grown by leaps and bounds since then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
The press was talking about Ali tens of times more than they were speaking about Jones.
For the reasons I mentioned earlier, social and political. The times were different. Blacks were supposed to keep quiet and say 'yes sir' and 'No sir' and not be 'uppity' like Ali was. Ali, like jackie Robinson in baseball, made social gains that benefited other black boxers and athletes.

And most of the media hype in the 60's was decidedly negative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
The most "outrageous" thing Jones has dared to do was sing a song 'the greatest of all time', while refusing to answer about his placement in history whenever anyone asked him this question, he always answers he doesn't think about that and leaves that to others to estimate his placement.
So?
Jones's character and personality are different from Ali's.

Much of the 'hype' Ali did was to promote the fights and the sport. You ( and many others) lack a sense of irony and humor when you take everythingg he said at face value. He said that Liston was too ugly to be champ. Do you think he was being serious there ?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
The guy who was dropped by Banks and Cooper was considered to have no chin. So yeah. During his prime years he got dropped twice by much inferior opponents with no big punch.
Being dropped is NOT the measure of a chin. Being KO'd IS. Ali's chin was never an issue in any of his fights. Nearly every boxing writer, commentator or knowledgeable fan will agree that Ali had an IRON chin.

Maybe that's part of the reason his brain is in such shape today.


From your posts here, and from earlier exchanges on the subject of Ali, several points are clear.

You speak of Ali from a historical perspective. His career was virtually over before you were born. You have no idea of the social and political climate that existed in the US when he was on the rise, at his peak, in his exile, during his comeback and subsequent decline.
Moreover, you take his hype quite literally, making no allowance for clowning, humor and banter, much of it what kept the sport alive in the eyes of the general public. This is perhaps understandable in that you grew up in a different place and at a different time.

But you also appear to have a personal grudge here, evident in the kind of attacks you have previously made.

You are the only one I've run accross, pro or anti Ali, who has denigrated his heart and also his chin.

This thread was about how prime Jones might do against a prime Ali. It has been side-tracked somewhat by your interjection to criticize Ali.

On another thread, you refused to confirm that you once said that prime Jones would beat prime Ali. The excuse then was that was not the thread topic. Well it is the thread topic here. So would you care to give an opinion ?

1966 Ali at 210 versus any version you choose of Jones.

Who wins ?



Footnote: Roy is one of my alltime favourite boxers and, IMO the greatest LHW of alltime.
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Old 01-06-2008, 05:01 AM   #78
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

Decisions can be of different kind. Sometimes you make decisions totally on your own, without any interference or even despite it. Sometimes you agree to persuasion of other people. In Ali's case it is obvious which case it was.

You have to look not only at accesability or sophistication, but actually compare how much coverage one and the other subjects have received. Like I said, it's not even comparable. Regardless of the reasons, and regardless of sports or politics, Ali was getting a lot more coverage than Roy.

First he was a heavyweight, a heavyweight champion who always get MUCH MORE attention than any lower weight divisions.

Second, the TV audience of Ali fights was many times bigger than Jones's ever was. Tens or even hundreds times more people recognize Ali's name and don't have any idea who Roy Jones is (one sports journalist here in Russia was approached by publishing company recently with suggestion to write a book about boxing, leaving him the choice of subject, and he asked the visitors of his blog what they would like him to write a book about, I believe RJJ received more voices than any other subject, but the publishers just wouldn't accept it, RJJ is only known among narrow audience of people who follow boxing, so he's probably going to write about modern heavyweight champions from former USSR instead, as they are known to a lot more people than Roy).

Third, if you studied psychology and theory of knowledge, you should be aware that opinions about personal qualities of celebrities often heavily affect the opinion about their professional qualities as well.

Fourth, again the psychology thing, people tend to forget the negative things of the past and only remember the good things, so that the details of the image of Ali today are often heavily distorted or exaggerated, most of them in a positive way for him. It'll inevitably happen with how RJJ is perceived too, in many years from now. But as a historian it's often good to look at things the way they were perceived at the time the event had taken place. Which I do my best to show here sometimes, so we are not getting carried away by this psychological trait of praising the past and despising all that is modern. So when I say Ali's chin was considered weak and his heart was in doubt, I note that that was contemporary opinion at some point. I was burning some fights on DVD's for exchange yesterday and by accident John Ruiz - Ray Anis fight grabbed my attention, I remembered it was a very short fight (Ruiz destroyed him in a few seconds), so I desided to watch it again. The commentators were giveing their opinion about weak and strong points of each fighter, and Ruiz' two weaknesses that were listed were 'slow starter' and 'weak chin'. 1st one was, of course, smashed into pieces by the fight itself. But the 2nd one looked more interesting to me. It was obviously based on his fight with David Tua (the hardest puncher in history in my opinion). Right now we know much better that Ruiz' chin is pretty solid one, he was never again even close to being stopped despite fighting top class opposition for many years.

I think I have a good enough sense of humor, and I obviously don't pay attention to the fight hype. Recent Mayorga-Vargas fight was a perfect example, it could look like they had f**ed every relative of each other before the fight, if one was to just take it literally, not knowing the specifics of such statements. The problem is not all know it, and are easily a lot more persuadable by Ali's statements about himself being the greatest, than they are by Jones' rap songs which even most of boxing followers never even heard other than when he used it for his entrance to the ring, and people not following the sports too closely might even be not aware that he's producing the songs at all. And Roy never discussed his placement in history at TV or in interviews to the media, if anybody said something it's the media guys themselves, like they do about all stars or to-become-stars.
And, based on boxing forums, they don't succeed too well, some people believe the hype, but the majority forms their own opinion based on what they see these stars do in the ring and based on how they perceive their opponents, not based on what the commentators say (on the contrary you see them criticized for being biased all the time) or what magazines and newspapers write.

I have an idea about political and social climate in the US in the 1960's, I have some friends who were born and grew up in that time, who are black, and I talked to them about this subject too a few times (they are not too eager to speak about it, though, and it can be understood). I also get an idea about it from old magazines and newspapers (Ali was getting coverage on an daily basis, the editor's feature articles in the Ring magazines were almost always about heavyweights too).

Personal grudge against a fighter? If you followed the forum closely, you should be aware that I mostly interfere with my opinion only when reacting to something written by others. In this particular case, it looked funny to me that Ali-Liston I fights and the praise of Ali's heart are just a couple of statements apart.
As for the chin, and it not being about knocked down, but about being knocked out, again, if you read the forums or boxing sites or newspapers, you should have seen it all the time, when a fighter is knocked down (even when it's a flash knockdown or the fighter doesn't look hurt at all), a lot of people start doubting his chin or outright calling it made of glass.

As for the topic of this thread, you see, if you read the opinions that have been expressed here so far, it doesn't look like Ali I see on film. Him using his size and strength to crush Jones (Ali never could impose his strength on any serious opponent, and even if he had somebody on the ropes, he was throwing arm punches that landed mostly on the block, he was totally inaccurate, he couldn't mix hard and light punches together, he almost doesn't know what an uppercut is or what a body punch is). Him knocking Jones out; he couldn't legitimately stop old Floyd Patterson, despite landing probably hundreds of punches in total, I could list many more examples that point out that Ali didn't have the punch to knock out Jones even despite the difference in size, but what's the purpose, people will still see what they want to see. Ali using his handspeed (he might have looked fast for a heavyweight, Jones fought opponents at lower weights who were faster than Ali in absolute speed comparison, and they couldn't land anything more than occasional single punches to the head). Ali using his footspeed (here the same people usually combine post-exile Ali, who was slow and only danced on his feet for only several rounds per fight, staying flat-footed and just covering up the rest of the time, but was stronger and tougher, with pre-exile Ali, who indeed danced a lot, but was a lot more fragile and with a punch not as hard. Which is absurd thing to do, but people don't pay attention to such thing, anyway.

So no, I'm not going to waste my time trying to persuade Ali fans about ineptitude of most of their arguments.
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Old 01-06-2008, 05:49 AM   #79
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrooster
Prime Roy, the miracle man of boxing could give Muhammud real problems. Certainly would go ten and possibly win on points the way Spinks outpointed a sluggish Holmes. Would the Ali-Frazier two match of '73 be in jeopardy?
Prime for prime this is a palpable mismatch,Ali with no threat in front of him would be in no hurry,he would dance around Jones for a few rounds,then begin to apply pressure around the 5th,I see a stoppage in the 6th or 7th rather like the Jimmy Ellis fight. Jones is no heavyweight.
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Old 01-06-2008, 06:54 AM   #80
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Decisions can be of different kind. Sometimes you make decisions totally on your own, without any interference or even despite it. Sometimes you agree to persuasion of other people. In Ali's case it is obvious which case it was.
Obviously, Ali was rattled when his eyes were stinging from liniment and he could barely see. What fighter wouldn't be. He's in with one of the most intimidating heavywts in history and he doesn't have his vision. Fortunately for him, Dundee kept his head and sent him out.

How can you question the heart of a man who goes back out for round five under those circumstances? The point is, he went out, displaying great courage, avoided Liston's haymakers, displaying great skill and movement, and before round five was over, he was back in the driver's seat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
You have to look not only at accesability or sophistication, but actually compare how much coverage one and the other subjects have received. Like I said, it's not even comparable. Regardless of the reasons, and regardless of sports or politics, Ali was getting a lot more coverage than Roy.

First he was a heavyweight, a heavyweight champion who always get MUCH MORE attention than any lower weight divisions.

Second, the TV audience of Ali fights was many times bigger than Jones's ever was. Tens or even hundreds times more people recognize Ali's name and don't have any idea who Roy Jones is (one sports journalist here in Russia was approached by publishing company recently with suggestion to write a book about boxing, leaving him the choice of subject, and he asked the visitors of his blog what they would like him to write a book about, I believe RJJ received more voices than any other subject, but the publishers just wouldn't accept it, RJJ is only known among narrow audience of people who follow boxing, so he's probably going to write about modern heavyweight champions from former USSR instead, as they are known to a lot more people than Roy).
Ali got more coverage and more people know his name, but I doubt if anywhere close to as many people actually saw him fight a complete fight in his prime as watched Roy when he was a major ppv draw.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Third, if you studied psychology and theory of knowledge, you should be aware that opinions about personal qualities of celebrities often heavily affect the opinion about their professional qualities as well.
You're referring to the professional qualities as estimated by the masses, or even very casual fans. More serious boxing fans are not very much affected by the type of hype you're referrring to.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Fourth, again the psychology thing, people tend to forget the negative things of the past and only remember the good things, so that the details of the image of Ali today are often heavily distorted or exaggerated, most of them in a positive way for him. It'll inevitably happen with how RJJ is perceived too, in many years from now. But as a historian it's often good to look at things the way they were perceived at the time the event had taken place. Which I do my best to show here sometimes, so we are not getting carried away by this psychological trait of praising the past and despising all that is modern.
In general, i tend to think that modern fighters, like other athletes, are better than the glory guys of yesteryear. But that's a generalization and each case must be considered individually.

And while i have been an Ali fan since 1965, I don't regard him as a saint.
From his own words and from other people's accounts, he's had his share of faults. i regard him as having been a naive pawn of the Nation of Islam and all the ****heads in that particular group of hangers-on, who found him useful for propoganda purposes. ( i can understand why he would have fell as easy prey to such a group, though, given the prevailing social climate at the time and the long history of the treatment of Blacks in the US, especially the South. When Ali was young, apartheid was practiced in the Southern states. Separate cafes, drinking fountains, schools, etc.)

I didn't like his treatment of Joe Frazier and I think Ali himself regrets some of the things he said.

And he had other faults and occasionally, downright stupidities.

But overall, I see a lot more positives in the man than negatives.
((When he noticed Zora Folley's young son upset at ringside after he KOd his dad, Ali had a chat with the boy and assured him that if his dad had been in his prime, he would have won the fight. A bit of a stretch, but a nice gesture to a boy upset about his dad's loss. Of course, no cameras were rolling for that.)

Professionally, he was very unorthodox and relied on speed and athleticism. He did things 'wrong' but it worked for him.
(BTW, the last two sentences apply to Roy too.)

Last edited by blowyabackou; 12-08-2006 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 01-06-2008, 06:55 AM   #81
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
So when I say Ali's chin was considered weak and his heart was in doubt, I note that that was contemporary opinion at some point.
Source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
I was burning some fights on DVD's for exchange yesterday and by accident John Ruiz - Ray Anis fight grabbed my attention, I remembered it was a very short fight (Ruiz destroyed him in a few seconds), so I desided to watch it again. The commentators were giveing their opinion about weak and strong points of each fighter, and Ruiz' two weaknesses that were listed were 'slow starter' and 'weak chin'. 1st one was, of course, smashed into pieces by the fight itself. But the 2nd one looked more interesting to me. It was obviously based on his fight with David Tua (the hardest puncher in history in my opinion). Right now we know much better that Ruiz' chin is pretty solid one, he was never again even close to being stopped despite fighting top class opposition for many years.
I understand that some people might consider being KO'd by Tua as being indicative of a weak chin. Such is not the case, though. I get annoyed when I hear that Lennox had a poor chin based on a couple of instances of carelessness and being caught flush by two big hard-hitters.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Personal grudge against a fighter? If you followed the forum closely, you should be aware that I mostly interfere with my opinion only when reacting to something written by others. In this particular case, it looked funny to me that Ali-Liston I fights and the praise of Ali's heart are just a couple of statements apart.
I'm believe that the Liston 1 fight was a 'baptism by fire' event in Ali's life. I think he showed great heart facing Liston for round five under those circumstances.

And I inferred personal vitriol from your characterization of Ali as
"..a windbag with no chin"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
As for the chin, and it not being about knocked down, but about being knocked out, again, if you read the forums or boxing sites or newspapers, you should have seen it all the time, when a fighter is knocked down (even when it's a flash knockdown or the fighter doesn't look hurt at all), a lot of people start doubting his chin or outright calling it made of glass.
True. But many (most?) on the forum are dillitentes when it comes to the sport and have little true analytic aptitude. You stated it in such a way as to indicate that it was your opinion that, because of the KDs, Ali had no chin.
It was YOUR opinion I was responding to ( and you're a farirly knowledgeable and serious poster) and not the idiotic opinions which regard a KD and back up right away as 'glass-chinned' Ali was never KO'd in his life, nor never even close. He was stopped by holmes when he was well into Parkinsons and almost 39, but not on account of his chin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
As for the topic of this thread, you see, if you read the opinions that have been expressed here so far, it doesn't look like Ali I see on film. Him using his size and strength to crush Jones (Ali never could impose his strength on any serious opponent, and even if he had somebody on the ropes, he was throwing arm punches that landed mostly on the block, he was totally inaccurate, he couldn't mix hard and light punches together, he almost doesn't know what an uppercut is or what a body punch is). Him knocking Jones out; he couldn't legitimately stop old Floyd Patterson, despite landing probably hundreds of punches in total, I could list many more examples that point out that Ali didn't have the punch to knock out Jones even despite the difference in size, but what's the purpose, people will still see what they want to see. Ali using his handspeed (he might have looked fast for a heavyweight, Jones fought opponents at lower weights who were faster than Ali in absolute speed comparison, and they couldn't land anything more than occasional single punches to the head). Ali using his footspeed (here the same people usually combine post-exile Ali, who was slow and only danced on his feet for only several rounds per fight, staying flat-footed and just covering up the rest of the time, but was stronger and tougher, with pre-exile Ali, who indeed danced a lot, but was a lot more fragile and with a punch not as hard. Which is absurd thing to do, but people don't pay attention to such thing, anyway.
You were doing ok up till this paragraph, but there's so much i would disagree with here that it's hard to know where to start.

It's late and I need to get to bed. You need to watch all his fights from Liston to Frazier 1, to see the foolishness of these remarks.


But for a start, have a look at:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

please see 1:59 - 2:04 to see what Ali could do to someone on the ropes.

And while he didn't impose his strength the way a Foreman or a Tyson did, by the time the fight ended, he had KOd 10 of the 12 opponents he faced. (Chuvalo was iron-chinned and he wasn't trying too hard to KO Terrell)

As I mentioned, I rank jones as the best ever at 175. But at 195 against a 210 Ali circa 1966, all his main attributes would be neutralized. And We don't really know what kind of chin prime Jones had since he was so elusive, it was never really tested. Ali would certainly be able to land.

At best, a clear UD, but more likely, Jones gets stopped.

This, like all other hypotheticals, can only be argued from opinion. We can never know for sure. And neither of us are likely to change the other's opinion


Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
So no, I'm not going to waste my time trying to persuade Ali fans about ineptitude of most of their arguments.
Hey, you just spent a chunk of your time writing a 1300 word post.


Footnote: I joined this forum exactly a year ago and had my first serious exchanges with another poster regarding the relative merits of Floyd, Leonard and Duran etc. That poster was you. And now, here we are, exactly a year later, and we're at it again, on a different topic.

It's been a slice.
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:01 AM   #82
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

There's no place quite like here is there

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Old 01-06-2008, 07:33 AM   #83
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

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Prime Roy, the miracle man of boxing could give Muhammud real problems. Certainly would go ten and possibly win on points the way Spinks outpointed a sluggish Holmes. Would the Ali-Frazier two match of '73 be in jeopardy?
Roy jones would be no better than even money against Hagler yet you want to match him with Ali?
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:56 AM   #84
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Roy jones would be no better than even money against Hagler yet you want to match him with Ali?
Hey, you know Red mate

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Old 01-20-2010, 04:27 AM   #85
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

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What are you saying? That Ali might have a chance under the right circumstances? Are you forgetting who the underdog really is here? Look dude, almost every version of ali except for the one between 1978-1981, would be heavily favoured to beat even a peak version of Roy Jones. Just because the guy stepped up and outboxed John Ruiz, does not give us even the slightest indication that he'd have any chance against an all time great heavyweight, particularly what many consider as the best heavyweight ever. I also disagree that Roy Jones would have a huge edge in quickness. Sure he was a lot faster at middleweight and even lightheavyweight, but at 190 Lbs, he wasn't much faster if even at all than Ali at 210-215. In fact, I would venture to say that a 60's Ali was probably even faster than Jones. This says nothing about Ali's size, strenght, heart, chin, stamina, reach and everything else that he'd have over Jones.

Conclusion: Roy Jones does NOT beat Muhammad Ali........Period........
Agreed.
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Old 01-20-2010, 05:14 AM   #86
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

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Originally Posted by redrooster View Post
Prime Roy, the miracle man of boxing could give Muhammud real problems. Certainly would go ten and possibly win on points the way Spinks outpointed a sluggish Holmes. Would the Ali-Frazier two match of '73 be in jeopardy?
The Ali-Frazier II match was in`74 & please stop with the comedy threads..... Jones would be toyed with then hospitalized if Ali felt mean that day
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Old 01-20-2010, 05:21 AM   #87
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

I can't believe this thread has done six pages. I remember not reading it the last time, now I have to not read it again?
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Old 01-20-2010, 05:38 AM   #88
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

My initial reaction is that Ali would win comfortably but you can never bet against a prime Roy Jones being able to box his way to a decision.

That said I do feel Ali's size and strength advantages coupled with his speed (not as fast as Jones but fast enough to stay with him) would be enough to see him get the victory. With the possibility of a mid to late round stoppage.
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Old 01-20-2010, 05:40 AM   #89
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Ali would KO Jones early. Every single time.
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Old 01-20-2010, 05:41 AM   #90
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Default Re: Muhammud Ali vs. Roy Jones

ali wouldn't break into a sweat.the 72' ali had problems with bob foster for a while biut the 67' ali would not be bothered by a light-heavy,steroids or not.
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