I've had enough, time for a change

icemax · 04-28-2010, 05:28 AM

All this dancing on the head of a pin debate over one or two rounds in a very close championship fight has been the straw that has broken this camels back.

I’ve had enough.

Fans will continue to argue about the outcome of the Froch – Kessler battle, punch stats will be produced to support one view or the other, we will have endless debate and at the end of the day no one will agree…that’s fine because we are just fans and our views have absolutely no impact on the outcome of any fight. However, when you check the judges cards, paid professionals, their views are so disparate that it is apparent that one of two situations exist:

1/ The judges are corrupt as fuck and there was only ever going to be one winner regardless of the reality in the ring or, and more likely,

2/the paid men have about as much idea of how to score a fight as we do

….none of their cards agreed, it’s a complete farce that a championship belt was won and lost on the basis of the judgment of 3 men who did not have a fucking clue…it was pure luck that the consensus winner was the actual winner and this is completely unacceptable. Boxing is not ice skating, high board diving or gymnastics…the outcome of a championship bout should not be a matter of opinion, it should be definitive, final and without doubt…boxing is not and should never be subjective and certainly not when a title is on the line.

I have come to the conclusion that it is time for us not only to go old school, but to go old, old school with the sport we love and have championships decided the old fashioned way when fighters would have to practically snatch the belt from the cold hands of the old champion. In short –

- 15 or even 20 round world championship bouts. I have had enough of fighters nicking the first 10-15 minutes of a 12 round fight, then getting on their bikes for the remainder knowing full well that they will get the decision. Lets make this a proper endurance test where only the very strongest succeed….that should be the nature of a championship bout

- Same day weigh ins. At one time I was actually really concerned about fighters safety, but as time has moved on I have realized that these men are precisely that, grown men and they are quite capable of making decisions for themselves. If a physical freak like Paul Williams wants to boil down to 147 then fair enough, but he would then have to realize that he is not going to get time to rehydrate back up to the SMW limit in time for the first bell. When I watch a welterweight contest I want to see welterweights fighting, not dehydrated and rehydrated super middles…if these idiots want to put their lives on the line, then that’s their choice but I have no doubt that the natural at the weight will always prevail over 15-20 rounds and that’s exactly how it should be.

- Winning a title. In days of yore the only way that a championship belt could change hands was when the challenger actually stopped the champion…there were no judges, no dodgy or questionable decisions. It was simple, you don’t stop the champ, then you don’t win the belt. The "winner" of the fight was decided by acclamation, newspapers proclaimed the actual winner of the bout, people on the street debated but this did not in any way affect the outcome of the championship, only the skill, physical endurance and will of the fighters decided that and not a bunch of know nothing homegrown judges.

Time for a change

Rant over

Govanmauler · 04-28-2010, 05:34 AM

Agree with all that ( except maybe the having to stop the champion bit )

The weigh ins have always been a bugbear of mine too !

icemax · 04-28-2010, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Govanmauler

Agree with all that ( except maybe the having to stop the champion bit )

The weigh ins have always been a bugbear of mine too !

The stop the champ stuff is fundamental, it takes away any chance that three incompetants have of fucking up a decision and snatching a championship...Boxing is the only proper sport where a result is judgemental and not definitive.

Grant1 · 04-28-2010, 05:41 AM

Are the cards that different?

If you take the card in the middle, 8-4, the other two were only one round either side.

You can disagree with them fair enough, but I don't think the scores are that different.

If we compare it with Froch Dirrell and forget about Dirrells deduction, 2 of the cards were 115-113 to Froch and the other 115-113 Dirrell.

That's the same difference in terms of rounds scored, and that's acceptable to be honest.

TFFP · 04-28-2010, 05:43 AM

Nice sentiments, never going to happen though

Govanmauler · 04-28-2010, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemax

The stop the champ stuff is fundamental, it takes away any chance that three incompetants have of fucking up a decision and snatching a championship...Boxing is the only proper sport where a result is judgemental and not definitive.

Yeah , I can see why that makes sense but then wouldn't that mean guys like Sweet Pea never get a title because they are not KO punchers

avidlemon · 04-28-2010, 05:47 AM

Not sure about stopping the champion. There plenty of good boxers out there without masses of power who are clearly better boxer than fighter they fight with power. Surely the points system, although it doesn't always work is fair to these guys also.

TFFP · 04-28-2010, 05:52 AM

I'd just like to see 15 rds. I think you'd get more definitive outcomes with more rounds to play with and an extra test of stamina, the strongest sweeps the end rounds. I don't think we should penalize non punchers.

Same day weigh ins would also bring more transparency to things but at the end of the day EVERYONE lives by the same rules at the moment in that regard so its not too bad.

icemax · 04-28-2010, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Govanmauler

Yeah , I can see why that makes sense but then wouldn't that mean guys like Sweet Pea never get a title because they are not KO punchers

People like Sweet Pea would always be the champs, thats the point, he would win on attrition alone, hit and not be hit...even a featherfisted fighter can be powerfull at the end of 15-20 round fights

icemax · 04-28-2010, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant1

Are the cards that different?

If you take the card in the middle, 8-4, the other two were only one round either side.

You can disagree with them fair enough, but I don't think the scores are that different.

If we compare it with Froch Dirrell and forget about Dirrells deduction, 2 of the cards were 115-113 to Froch and the other 115-113 Dirrell.

That's the same difference in terms of rounds scored, and that's acceptable to be honest.

Its not really the Froch fights that I am really concerned with, although I still don't understand the judges cards....there are horrible decisions made on a weekly basis...it is merely coincidental that the consensus winner of the Froch - Kessler fight actually got the nod. With only two fighters to choose from Judges have a pretty good chance of picking a winner completely at random.

portside · 04-28-2010, 06:38 AM

you really no your boxing icemax, in a lot of cases many years ago the the corner decided when they were beaten, just conceeded victory. in this age why don't they have text voting from the tv veiwers, right or w rong decicion the veiwing public would get what they want.

portside · 04-28-2010, 06:43 AM

in newyork state they outlawed decisions because of mob interferance, so the newspapers opinion next day decided the winner.

icemax · 04-28-2010, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by portside

you really no your boxing icemax, in a lot of cases many years ago the the corner decided when they were beaten, just conceeded victory. in this age why don't they have text voting from the tv veiwers, right or w rong decicion the veiwing public would get what they want.

Problem with that is that we would then have 16 x 4 Chinese or Indian world champs, and none from p4p countries like Panama

GazOC · 04-28-2010, 06:46 AM

Same day weigh ins:

Won't happen. Day before weigh-ins have a better safety record and its the same for both fighters in any case. Same with putting rounds back to 15 or 2, won't happen because of the safety aspect (real or imagined)

Stopping the champ to win the title:

Plain Daft (sorry Ice). How many boring safety first displays would we see from the champs? You think the networks would buy fights where only one guy is trying to win? That ended with the "winner" getting nothing?

Champion L12 Challenger, Champion keeps title? Ridiculous.

Champions avoiding big punchers like the plague. Pernell Whittaker would lose in title challenges to Yori Boy Campas.

I'm an ideal world the 15 round limit would return but, for the same reason was the same day weigh-ins, no organization will do it in case they are the ones with the tragedy on their hands with all the attendant bad PR and potential lawsuit.

The second idea of the champion needing to be knocked out is just plain crazy and comes from a time when that rule was forced upon boxing by the politicians, boxing didn't want it and neither did the fans. They got rid of it as soon as they legally could because it didn't make for entertaining or fair fights.

All this fuss over Froch losing a close but clear decision?

TFFP · 04-28-2010, 06:46 AM

The viewing public have too many agendas for that to be reliable and fair. Mayweather certainly wouldn't be undefeated

04-28-2010, 05:28 AM	#1
icemax Indian Red East Side VIP Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 18,341 vCash: 664	I've had enough, time for a change All this dancing on the head of a pin debate over one or two rounds in a very close championship fight has been the straw that has broken this camels back. I’ve had enough. Fans will continue to argue about the outcome of the Froch – Kessler battle, punch stats will be produced to support one view or the other, we will have endless debate and at the end of the day no one will agree…that’s fine because we are just fans and our views have absolutely no impact on the outcome of any fight. However, when you check the judges cards, paid professionals, their views are so disparate that it is apparent that one of two situations exist: 1/ The judges are corrupt as fuck and there was only ever going to be one winner regardless of the reality in the ring or, and more likely, 2/the paid men have about as much idea of how to score a fight as we do ….none of their cards agreed, it’s a complete farce that a championship belt was won and lost on the basis of the judgment of 3 men who did not have a fucking clue…it was pure luck that the consensus winner was the actual winner and this is completely unacceptable. Boxing is not ice skating, high board diving or gymnastics…the outcome of a championship bout should not be a matter of opinion, it should be definitive, final and without doubt…boxing is not and should never be subjective and certainly not when a title is on the line. I have come to the conclusion that it is time for us not only to go old school, but to go old, old school with the sport we love and have championships decided the old fashioned way when fighters would have to practically snatch the belt from the cold hands of the old champion. In short – - 15 or even 20 round world championship bouts. I have had enough of fighters nicking the first 10-15 minutes of a 12 round fight, then getting on their bikes for the remainder knowing full well that they will get the decision. Lets make this a proper endurance test where only the very strongest succeed….that should be the nature of a championship bout - Same day weigh ins. At one time I was actually really concerned about fighters safety, but as time has moved on I have realized that these men are precisely that, grown men and they are quite capable of making decisions for themselves. If a physical freak like Paul Williams wants to boil down to 147 then fair enough, but he would then have to realize that he is not going to get time to rehydrate back up to the SMW limit in time for the first bell. When I watch a welterweight contest I want to see welterweights fighting, not dehydrated and rehydrated super middles…if these idiots want to put their lives on the line, then that’s their choice but I have no doubt that the natural at the weight will always prevail over 15-20 rounds and that’s exactly how it should be. - Winning a title. In days of yore the only way that a championship belt could change hands was when the challenger actually stopped the champion…there were no judges, no dodgy or questionable decisions. It was simple, you don’t stop the champ, then you don’t win the belt. The "winner" of the fight was decided by acclamation, newspapers proclaimed the actual winner of the bout, people on the street debated but this did not in any way affect the outcome of the championship, only the skill, physical endurance and will of the fighters decided that and not a bunch of know nothing homegrown judges. Time for a change Rant over
Top

04-28-2010, 05:34 AM	#2
Govanmauler Champion East Side Guru Join Date: May 2007 Location: Glasgow Posts: 7,940 vCash: 1000	Re: I've had enough, time for a change Agree with all that ( except maybe the having to stop the champion bit ) The weigh ins have always been a bugbear of mine too !
Top

04-28-2010, 05:41 AM	#4
Grant1 Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: S Wales Posts: 7,074 vCash: 1421	Re: I've had enough, time for a change Are the cards that different? If you take the card in the middle, 8-4, the other two were only one round either side. You can disagree with them fair enough, but I don't think the scores are that different. If we compare it with Froch Dirrell and forget about Dirrells deduction, 2 of the cards were 115-113 to Froch and the other 115-113 Dirrell. That's the same difference in terms of rounds scored, and that's acceptable to be honest.
Top

04-28-2010, 05:43 AM	#5
TFFP The Eskimo East Side VIP Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Reykjavík Posts: 30,411 vCash: 2500	Re: I've had enough, time for a change Nice sentiments, never going to happen though
Top

04-28-2010, 05:47 AM	#7
avidlemon Directly in the bu-ttocks ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Big daddy avid sez smigg will be back! Posts: 3,640 vCash: 1000	Re: I've had enough, time for a change Not sure about stopping the champion. There plenty of good boxers out there without masses of power who are clearly better boxer than fighter they fight with power. Surely the points system, although it doesn't always work is fair to these guys also.
Top

04-28-2010, 05:52 AM	#8
TFFP The Eskimo East Side VIP Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Reykjavík Posts: 30,411 vCash: 2500	Re: I've had enough, time for a change I'd just like to see 15 rds. I think you'd get more definitive outcomes with more rounds to play with and an extra test of stamina, the strongest sweeps the end rounds. I don't think we should penalize non punchers. Same day weigh ins would also bring more transparency to things but at the end of the day EVERYONE lives by the same rules at the moment in that regard so its not too bad.
Top

04-28-2010, 06:38 AM	#11
portside Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: WEREVER I LAY MY HAT Posts: 1,548 vCash: 500	Re: I've had enough, time for a change you really no your boxing icemax, in a lot of cases many years ago the the corner decided when they were beaten, just conceeded victory. in this age why don't they have text voting from the tv veiwers, right or w rong decicion the veiwing public would get what they want.
Top

04-28-2010, 06:43 AM	#12
portside Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: WEREVER I LAY MY HAT Posts: 1,548 vCash: 500	Re: I've had enough, time for a change in newyork state they outlawed decisions because of mob interferance, so the newspapers opinion next day decided the winner.
Top

04-28-2010, 06:46 AM	#14
GazOC Guest Star for Team Taff East Side VIP Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Spion Kop Posts: 44,504 vCash: 1000	Re: I've had enough, time for a change Same day weigh ins: Won't happen. Day before weigh-ins have a better safety record and its the same for both fighters in any case. Same with putting rounds back to 15 or 2, won't happen because of the safety aspect (real or imagined) Stopping the champ to win the title: Plain Daft (sorry Ice). How many boring safety first displays would we see from the champs? You think the networks would buy fights where only one guy is trying to win? That ended with the "winner" getting nothing? Champion L12 Challenger, Champion keeps title? Ridiculous. Champions avoiding big punchers like the plague. Pernell Whittaker would lose in title challenges to Yori Boy Campas. I'm an ideal world the 15 round limit would return but, for the same reason was the same day weigh-ins, no organization will do it in case they are the ones with the tragedy on their hands with all the attendant bad PR and potential lawsuit. The second idea of the champion needing to be knocked out is just plain crazy and comes from a time when that rule was forced upon boxing by the politicians, boxing didn't want it and neither did the fans. They got rid of it as soon as they legally could because it didn't make for entertaining or fair fights. All this fuss over Froch losing a close but clear decision?
Top