Bob Fitzsimmons Appreciation Thread

[SuzieQ49]

The film we have of him, shows a very distinct and odd style. The Corbett fight attests to this

A style that perhaps pertains more to bareknuckle style than modern boxing?

I thought Corbett got the better of Fitz in the film until the knockout blow. Corbett was a lil bit past it at the time too. Corbett outboxed him easily, corbett knocked fitz down(fitz cheated by grabbing on to the ref and prevented himself from being counted out enabling him to get a long count). Corbett used modern boxing traits like footwork, movement, and a left jab. Fitz seemed very confused. Fitz did land a a great equalizer, perfectly timed. Great Punch. Solar Plexus shot is deadly.

[SuzieQ49]

And out of curiosity, do the black fighters get more credit in your book just because they were black?

It's more along the lines of a certain race of fighters being shunned out of big oppertunities because of racial discrimination. Just imagine if the color line was drawn in the heavyweight division from 1940 to present. ATG heavyweights like Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Muhammad Ali, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson would have all been deprived of the heavyweight title. Just imagine back in Fitz era, if there were talents like men mentioned above, who simply never got to reach their full potential because of lack of training and title fight oppertunities white fighters were given? Back in fitz era, he only had to fight white fighters. thats eliminating a large group of the boxing talent.


Is it a coincidence that post 1940 most linear heavyweight champions have been black? In fact I think all but 3(johansson, marciano, W klitschko) have been black. Why is that in your opinion?

Why is it that most players in the NBA are black? Why is it that most runningbacks/recievers/defensive backs in the NFL are black? why is it that most sprinters are black? Why can't a white person ever keep up with a kenyan in the boston marathon? Let's face it. Black people naturally are faster than white people physically. There are always anomaly's, but for the most part this is true. I don't have scientific evidence to back up this claim, but I don't think I am alone in this opinion.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by GPater11093

The film we have of him, shows a very distinct and odd style. The Corbett fight attests to this, as well as the Lang fight, purely from a stylistic sense.

I will not comment on the ability of Bob Fitzimmons...
But there was one man who SAW every heavyweight from John L Sullivan to Joe Louis...He was a famous American poet who wrote the definitive piece on Bob Fitzimmons...The poet was Edgar Lee Masters,1869-1950..He saw every champion until 1949,and was a boxing lover besides a poet...He insisted that Bob Fitzimmons who Masters saw many times would have licked every heavyweight,until 1949...Very convincing...
The article is in a book I have called The Book of Boxing, by W.C. Heinz and Nathan Ward...The Time Of Ruby Robert,article titled pg.228..
What a convincing piece from a boxing expert who saw them ALL..A Fighting Machine On Stilts, Ruby Robert was called...Check it out...b.b.

[SuzieQ49]

There is no question about the extremely high reviews every major historian of the era has placed on Fitzsimmons. Fitz is a legend. His punching prowess still stands amongst the elite 100 years later.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

It's more along the lines of a certain race of fighters being shunned out of big oppertunities because of racial discrimination. Just imagine if the color line was drawn in the heavyweight division from 1940 to present. ATG heavyweights like Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Muhammad Ali, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson would have all been deprived of the heavyweight title. Just imagine back in Fitz era, if there were talents like men mentioned above, who simply never got to reach their full potential because of lack of training and title fight oppertunities white fighters were given? Back in fitz era, he only had to fight white fighters. thats eliminating a large group of the boxing talent.


Is it a coincidence that post 1940 most linear heavyweight champions have been black? In fact I think all but 3(johansson, marciano, W klitschko) have been black. Why is that in your opinion?

Why is it that most players in the NBA are black? Why is it that most runningbacks/recievers/defensive backs in the NFL are black? why is it that most sprinters are black? Why can't a white person ever keep up with a kenyan in the boston marathon? Let's face it. Black people naturally are faster than white people physically. There are always anomaly's, but for the most part this is true. I don't have scientific evidence to back up this claim, but I don't think I am alone in this opinion.

This is a whole can or worms. I like athletes based on their merits rather than break it down by race. However, in athletics, whites have set world records and/or won Olympic and World Championships in every event from the 200 meters to the marathon over the past 30 years or so years. They have also done the same in the jumps, dominating the high jump for one. In regards to the marathon, Carlos Lopez, Stefano Baldini, Gelindo Bordin, Young Cho have all won Olympic marathons since '84. So... I'm not sure if the rationale of Black superiority in all these events is really true, at least not for the top few spots. I know for sure the recruitment is better in some countries for certain events and for certain ethnicities for certain events in some countries (i.e. you will rarely find a US coach steering white or hispanic athletes toward sprints)

For boxing, I think it is more to do with the poverty and access to training equipment. For instance, how could one explain the Latin American domination below middleweight? Guys who go 135 pounds are not getting swept up by the NBA or the NFL? Yet, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Panama, and to a lesser extent the countries of South America have dominated these divisions over the past 40 years.

Like I said, it's a whole can of worms. I think anytime you exclude any potential pool of talent, you are doing a disservice to a sport. But the same thing has happened to South Africa, Cuba and the former Iron Curtain countries.

[bodhi]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

It's more along the lines of a certain race of fighters being shunned out of big oppertunities because of racial discrimination. Just imagine if the color line was drawn in the heavyweight division from 1940 to present. ATG heavyweights like Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Muhammad Ali, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson would have all been deprived of the heavyweight title. Just imagine back in Fitz era, if there were talents like men mentioned above, who simply never got to reach their full potential because of lack of training and title fight oppertunities white fighters were given? Back in fitz era, he only had to fight white fighters. thats eliminating a large group of the boxing talent.


Is it a coincidence that post 1940 most linear heavyweight champions have been black? In fact I think all but 3(johansson, marciano, W klitschko) have been black. Why is that in your opinion?

Why is it that most players in the NBA are black? Why is it that most runningbacks/recievers/defensive backs in the NFL are black? why is it that most sprinters are black? Why can't a white person ever keep up with a kenyan in the boston marathon? Let's face it. Black people naturally are faster than white people physically. There are always anomaly's, but for the most part this is true. I don't have scientific evidence to back up this claim, but I don't think I am alone in this opinion.

It´s not because they are somehow superior sportsmen, I know in America you get indoctrinated with the stuff by your media. But it´s not true. Thing is the poorer you are the less possibilities you have to achieve something. In America moreso than over here. For poor people sport is most of the time the only possibility to achieve something. As far as I know a large part of the coloured population in the US is poor. Sport (or show business) is the only way out of there. On the flip side when you are wealthy you don´t need to get through all the troubles of a sport career when you can have it far easier?
In Germany you don´t find many ethnic Germans in the gyms in the big cities and those who do are nearly all from a poor tough background. The gyms are dominated by Turks and Eastern Europeans. When you go there as a German you will have no good time. I know this from experience from more than one gym. Getting discriminated and beaten up for your nationality in your own country is no fun.
Look at the history of boxing. In the beginning there were many Irish champions. Irish were citizens of second class then. Next were Jews, Italian than blacks and no Eastern Europeans. It´s not about race but how you are brought up, your live curcumstances and so on.

Kenyans run all their life. Running there is like football, the real one not the American one, in Brasil, Italy, Germany. Look how dominant these nations in this sport are. Same with Kenya. Long distance running is their national sport, and the only other country where it is as highly regarded is Ethiopia, which is nearly as good. Of course they dominate. This has nothing to do with beeing black.

[amhlilhaus]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Let's face it. Black people naturally are faster than white people physically. There are always anomaly's, but for the most part this is true. I don't have scientific evidence to back up this claim, but I don't think I am alone in this opinion.

and that's so racial and pathetic.

I'll play along. whites are smarter and are made to actually STUDY in school so they don't have time to focus exclusively on athletics, it's called a 'back up plan in case I don't make it to the pro level in sports'. don't have scientific evidence to back up this claim, but I know I'm not alone in this opinion.

as for your earlier 'he didn't fight top black fighters'

jackson was at his peak around fitzsimmons prime, fitz said somewhere that jackson was 'the daddy of them all' so he pretty much admits he'd lose to him

where are the other top black fighters from 1890 to 1898? nowhere near enough prominence for us to remember, mayber denver ed martin then who?

fitzsimmons would've most likely beaten the third raters you seem to think everyone was afraid.

[TheGreatA]

Let's forget the race talk for a moment and show our appreciation to the baddest 167 lb man to ever live.





Standing eye to eye with the 220 lb destroyer Jeffries, the only man to truly defeat Fitzsimmons:



How he developed his inhuman punching power:

[mattdonnellon]

I rate Fitz so highly too, there were no standout black challangers eg Frank Childs was probably as good a middleweight/Heavy of the black race but he was schooled, dominated by Creedon and Choynski. Guys like Dempsey, Hall, Maher, Sharkey, Choynski, Ruhlin were the legitimate contenders then.

[GPater11093]

Originally Posted by turpinr

the man in your avatar was leagues ahead of fitzsimmons in my opinion

Maybe not leagues. I do think Arguello was the better fighter but not the greater fighter.

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

A style that perhaps pertains more to bareknuckle style than modern boxing?

No, he had a style that was unorthodox for any era. He was truly unique. He changed his style for fighting Corbett, he played a patient counter-punching game and subtely pressured Corbett and countered his mistakes, ok he was losing on points but it was a long-term strategy.

In other fights, he was regarded as a very scientific fighter who utilised what you called modern traits like footwork and movement. This is a complete hunch and I havent found any conclusive evidence but I think Fitz utilised a lazy jab. But despite being regarded as a clever boxer he could also turn on the pressure and throw combinations and be a very explosive finisher, and relentless attacker.

I thought Corbett got the better of Fitz in the film until the knockout blow. Corbett was a lil bit past it at the time too.

Yep, as I said I think Fitzsimmons utilised a long-term strategy. I will put it out, that I think Fitzsimmons has a more modern style than Corbett.

Corbett outboxed him easily, corbett knocked fitz down(fitz cheated by grabbing on to the ref and prevented himself from being counted out enabling him to get a long count). Corbett used modern boxing traits like footwork, movement, and a left jab. Fitz seemed very confused.

I think 'easily' is pushing it, but yes he was winning. AAs I have said before i think Fitz utilised a long-term strategy, a pateint 'trap-smith' style, intent on slowing down Corbett and getting him out late.

Fitz did land a a great equalizer, perfectly timed. Great Punch. Solar Plexus shot is deadly.

And he always had this, making him a H2H nightmare IMO.

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

I will not comment on the ability of Bob Fitzimmons...
But there was one man who SAW every heavyweight from John L Sullivan to Joe Louis...He was a famous American poet who wrote the definitive piece on Bob Fitzimmons...The poet was Edgar Lee Masters,1869-1950..He saw every champion until 1949,and was a boxing lover besides a poet...He insisted that Bob Fitzimmons who Masters saw many times would have licked every heavyweight,until 1949...Very convincing...
The article is in a book I have called The Book of Boxing, by W.C. Heinz and Nathan Ward...The Time Of Ruby Robert,article titled pg.228..
What a convincing piece from a boxing expert who saw them ALL..A Fighting Machine On Stilts, Ruby Robert was called...Check it out...b.b.

Thanks for that Burt. I will definitly look out for that book.

[janitor]

The initial question was about Bob Fitzsimmons style so I will focus on that.

I have read more than one, perhaps more than two contemporary observers make the observation that Fitzsimmons was not the same in any two fights.

It is certainly apparent that he fought differently against much larger fighters than fighters his own size. If you were his own size or smaller he would typicaly just bulldoze you, while if you were bigger than him he would try to draw you into making a mistake before going in for the kill.

He was prepared to put his chin in harms way to land his own punches, and relied on verry small movments to avoid a lead. Having contered, he would often use footwork to avoid a return. His deffence worked to verry small margins of error, but he was rarely wrong in his calculations.

He seems to have often feigned being hurt in order to lure his oponents into a false sense of security then explode into life.

Most of his style employed counterpunching. In some fights he used the jab leading extensivley to soften up his oppoinents, while in others he hardly seems to have used it at all. When an opponet did make a mistake it typicaly only took one combination to finish the job.

The punch that finished Gus Ruhlin in the sixth round was described as a left hook to the jaw that travelled less than two feet. Ruhlin fell to the canvas face first and was not even able to put his hands out to stop himself. He subsequently had to be carried back to his corner.

The combination with which Fitz finished Ed Dunkhorst described in detail. "Fitz feinted to the head then landed a left to the solar plexus which prompted Dunkhorst to drop his hands. He then landed a right to the jaw followed by a right uppercut (which missed). Dunkhorst then threw up his hands to receive a left to the side of the torso followed by a left hook to the chin which put him down for the count. Fitzsimmons had to help Dunkhorst's seconds to carry him to his corner".

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Fitz was a great puncher p4p. He would set you up with a trap like archie moore then pounce on your weak spot before you know what hit you.

Just curious though, how many top rated black fighters did Fitzsimmons take on? he seemed to have drawn the color line. I know fitz fought 4 black fighters, but I don't think any of them amounted too much. I tend to not rate old time white fighters highly who did not take on top black fighters.

Do you hold a double standard with top black fighters like Jack Johnson, who skirted the best black fighters as champion? IMO, Johnson drew a color line.

What about Joe Louis? Only two of his 26 title defenses were vs black fighters.

[mattdonnellon]

Fitz was very much a thinking, calculating fighter and his style changed chameleon-like to reflect this. He had eneough inate ability to fight many different ways which I suppose is obvious if one fought as successfully from light to heavyweight as Fitz did.

[SuzieQ49]

Originally Posted by janitor

The initial question was about Bob Fitzsimmons style so I will focus on that.

I have read more than one, perhaps more than two contemporary observers make the observation that Fitzsimmons was not the same in any two fights.

It is certainly apparent that he fought differently against much larger fighters than fighters his own size. If you were his own size or smaller he would typicaly just bulldoze you, while if you were bigger than him he would try to draw you into making a mistake before going in for the kill.

He was prepared to put his chin in harms way to land his own punches, and relied on verry small movments to avoid a lead. Having contered, he would often use footwork to avoid a return. His deffence worked to verry small margins of error, but he was rarely wrong in his calculations.

He seems to have often feigned being hurt in order to lure his oponents into a false sense of security then explode into life.

Most of his style employed counterpunching. In some fights he used the jab leading extensivley to soften up his oppoinents, while in others he hardly seems to have used it at all. When an opponet did make a mistake it typicaly only took one combination to finish the job.

The punch that finished Gus Ruhlin in the sixth round was described as a left hook to the jaw that travelled less than two feet. Ruhlin fell to the canvas face first and was not even able to put his hands out to stop himself. He subsequently had to be carried back to his corner.

The combination with which Fitz finished Ed Dunkhorst described in detail. "Fitz feinted to the head then landed a left to the solar plexus which prompted Dunkhorst to drop his hands. He then landed a right to the jaw followed by a right uppercut (which missed). Dunkhorst then threw up his hands to receive a left to the side of the torso followed by a left hook to the chin which put him down for the count. Fitzsimmons had to help Dunkhorst's seconds to carry him to his corner".

Thanks. Great analysis. It seems Fitz invented precision punching before archie moore later adopted it. Fitz might be one of the few fighters in history who could knockout hall of fame fighters with single shots to the body.

[Seamus]

The more I learn of this fistic enterprise, the higher I rate Fitzsimmons, with Langford, at the top of the heap. All fighters post-Duran, don't have the testicular fortitude or natural born talent to carry on a career in a manner such as he did. Others who qualify would be Greb, Robinson, Ali... And I am sure there are more, but not many. Game till the end.