Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-28-2010, 10:59 AM   #16
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,445
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

I'm sure Cooney's power was devastating, but I don't think that we ever saw him dispatch a truly durable fighter to warrant rating him as the hardest puncher ever.. While he certainly beat Norton and Lyle convincingly, those guys were thoroughly done for and had previously been stopped by lesser fighters.. These fights don't offer much in the way of a berometer.. Now, had he stepped in the ring with someone like Tex Cobb around 1981 and managed to score a knockout or force a stoppage, then we'd have something to work with...
mr. magoo is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 05-28-2010, 11:27 AM   #17
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Spadafora View Post
Cooney had no right hand. None. Always trying to hook with the left. It is a shame he was not developed better by a proper trainer. He had potential but it was never realized.
That's a bit of a misconception. A right hand was the shot which initially stunned Norton, and another right tore open Young's face, leading directly to the stoppage. Earlier than that, he dug it to the body pretty well.

Valle and Cooney worked very hard to further develop it, and he did execute a few good looking rights to Young's head, although that was about as good as his cross ever got. I think it was a slightly better right than Frazier's, and arguably better than the hook Marciano had prior to Louis. The potential was clearly there for him to develop his right into a consistently deadly weapon.

Where I thought he screwed up was in the failure to utilize his jab far more than he did. That was his power hand, and he had the height and reach necessary to make it highly effective. Holmes said it was a good punch, but I clearly remember him doubling up on it just once during their showdown.
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2010, 11:33 AM   #18
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,445
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
That's a bit of a misconception. A right hand was the shot which initially stunned Norton, and another right tore open Young's face, leading directly to the stoppage. Earlier than that, he dug it to the body pretty well.

Valle and Cooney worked very hard to further develop it, and he did execute a few good looking rights to Young's head, although that was about as good as his cross ever got. I think it was a slightly better right than Frazier's, and arguably better than the hook Marciano had prior to Louis. The potential was clearly there for him to develop his right into a consistently deadly weapon.

Where I thought he screwed up was in the failure to utilize his jab far more than he did. That was his power hand, and he had the height and reach necessary to make it highly effective. Holmes said it was a good punch, but I clearly remember him doubling up on it just once during their showdown.
In Cooney's novelty match with Goerge Foreman in 1990, one of the commentators who stood alongside Larry Holmes was very impressed with how sharp Cooney looked in the first round.. I remember him saying that Gerry's left looked as good as it always had, and that his right seemed to have even improved.

Even though Gerry got beaten early, I respected the way he approached the fight.. He hired Gil Clancy to train him and despite his age and abscence from the ring, looked more fit and focussed than he had in years.. He was in far better physical and mental shape than in the Spinks fight.. I truly feel that Cooney believed that he could win that fight, and his diligence showed.. Had his chin been sturdier, he might very well have beaten George that evening. Foreman was eating a lot of leather in that first round, and in the beginning of the second. Once Cooney got hurt though, he simply couldn't recover.
mr. magoo is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2010, 11:49 AM   #19
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
In Cooney's novelty match with Gerge Foreman in 1990, one of the commentators who stood alongside Larry Holmes was very impressed with how sharp Cooney looked in the first round.. I remember him saying that Gerry's left looked as good as it always had, and that his right seemed to have even improved.

Even though Gerry got beaten early, I respected the way he approached the fight.. He hired Gil Clancy to train him and despite his age and absence from the ring, looked more fit and focused than he had in years.. He was in far better physical and mental shape than in the Spinks fight.. I truly feel that Cooney believed that he could win that fight, and his diligence showed.. Had his chin been sturdier, he might very well have beaten George that evening. Foreman was eating a lot of leather in that first round, and in the beginning of the second. Once Cooney got hurt though, he simply couldn't recover.
Gerry had very little physical strength for his size, so there was little question he was going to have to utilize mobility to have any kind of chance at survival, let alone winning. Tantalizing snippets like his atypical display of movement cause me to wonder what he might have done with that kind of training and greater activity against quality opposition immediately following Holmes.

That he couldn't take it on the temple guaranteed that there was a somewhat low ceiling to how high he could climb, but he should have gone considerably further than he did. (People sometimes forget how young he still was. Michael Spinks was his first match after turning 30, over five years after Holmes.)
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2010, 11:57 AM   #20
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,445
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
Gerry had very little physical strength for his size, so there was little question he was going to have to utilize mobility to have any kind of chance at survival, let alone winning. Tantalizing snippets like his atypical display of movement cause me to wonder what he might have done with that kind of training and greater activity against quality opposition immediately following Holmes.

That he couldn't take it on the temple guaranteed that there was a somewhat low ceiling to how high he could climb, but he should have gone considerably further than he did. (People sometimes forget how young he still was. Michael Spinks was his first match after turning 30, over five years after Holmes.)
Agreed,

I think too many people unfairly drop him in the category of a pure puncher, when in fact, he was actually a very good boxer as well... We just saw very few showings of these skills. I just wish the guy could have taken a better punch.. Can you imagine what he might have accomplished if he had Tex Cobb's durability?
mr. magoo is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2010, 01:53 PM   #21
Rico Spadafora
Best Chin On ESB
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 17,223
vCash: 1158
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
That's a bit of a misconception. A right hand was the shot which initially stunned Norton, and another right tore open Young's face, leading directly to the stoppage. Earlier than that, he dug it to the body pretty well.

Valle and Cooney worked very hard to further develop it, and he did execute a few good looking rights to Young's head, although that was about as good as his cross ever got. I think it was a slightly better right than Frazier's, and arguably better than the hook Marciano had prior to Louis. The potential was clearly there for him to develop his right into a consistently deadly weapon.

Where I thought he screwed up was in the failure to utilize his jab far more than he did. That was his power hand, and he had the height and reach necessary to make it highly effective. Holmes said it was a good punch, but I clearly remember him doubling up on it just once during their showdown.
I have read where observers of the day said Cooney actually had a very good Jab when he used it and pretty good hand speed for for about 4 or 5 rounds for such a big guy at the time.

I watched the Holmes fight the other day and Valle was telling him every round to double up on the Jab and Gerry just would not do it. The strategy they had for that fight was just awful. Not that Valle was not a good trainer but I would have liked to have seen what say Gil Clancy could have done with Cooney had he got him from the beginning. I think Valle babied and coddled Cooney too much.
Rico Spadafora is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2010, 04:27 AM   #22
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,119
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post

The fact is that Ron was indeed the only opponent to drop George with his power alone. It's also a fact that Young was not floored by Gerry as he was by Shavers, nor was Jimmy staggered by Cooney as he was by Foreman. These are not subjective opinions.

Gerry does not enjoy the overwhelming opponent consensus on the supremacy of his power that Shavers carries. I do think the evidence Gerry's hook was harder than Morrison's is concrete, based on Foreman's reactions to getting hit by both.
Let me get this straight

You are using the Mummy that faced Foreman as a legitimate barometer of Cooney's power?

Cooney hadn't fought for near on 3 years and was over the hill basically from the Holmes fight 8 years prior. He barely fought again and was poleaxed by Spinks 3 years before he faced Foreman without a single fight in between and after goodness knows what drug and alchohol abuse.

We could take many over the hill punchers and downgrade them via this criteria. Also, fighter A axing fighter B where fighter C fails has long been proven to be fallible. Boxing is full of anomolies.

Incidently i agree Shavers was the man. Probably the heaviest puncher ever, tho Cooney was sure no slouch.
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2010, 11:31 AM   #23
Bonecrusher
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cape Girardeau, MO
Posts: 984
vCash: 136
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

During the early years of the Forman comeback on the old USA Tuesday night fights. In one of his pre fight interviews they were doing a little question and answer section and I remember Foreman clearly saying that Ronnie Lyle hit so hard Im going to track down the tape in my collection to see exactly what is was he said but im pretty sure it was that Lyle was the hardest puncher he ever faced. On the topic Cooney can totally bang and had very good power. But I feel as though Shavers, Lyle, Tua and Ruddock are a few HEAVYWEIGHTS off the top of my head that had a bigger punch then Cooney.
Bonecrusher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2010, 11:35 AM   #24
tommygun711
The Future
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,340
vCash: 102
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1 View Post
Let me get this straight

You are using the Mummy that faced Foreman as a legitimate barometer of Cooney's power?

Cooney hadn't fought for near on 3 years and was over the hill basically from the Holmes fight 8 years prior. He barely fought again and was poleaxed by Spinks 3 years before he faced Foreman without a single fight in between and after goodness knows what drug and alchohol abuse.

We could take many over the hill punchers and downgrade them via this criteria. Also, fighter A axing fighter B where fighter C fails has long been proven to be fallible. Boxing is full of anomolies.

Incidently i agree Shavers was the man. Probably the heaviest puncher ever, tho Cooney was sure no slouch.
yep, the old foreman was still a good fighter, he ended up knocking out cooney, but anyway the point is that Cooney hit Foreman with a real good left hook and staggered him, but Morrison hit him with many many left hooks and Foreman didn't budge.
Cooney has better power then morrison.
tommygun711 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2010, 11:37 AM   #25
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,119
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommygun711 View Post
yep, the old foreman was still a good fighter, he ended up knocking out cooney, but anyway the point is that Cooney hit Foreman with a real good left hook and staggered him, but Morrison hit him with many many left hooks and Foreman didn't budge.
Cooney has better power then morrison.
I wasn't talking about the Cooney vs Morrison comparison.
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2010, 04:37 PM   #26
Titan1
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,867
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

I think Gerry had top-notch power, but he just stopped a still-somewhat decent Jimmy Young, and a washed-up Ron Lyle and over-the-hill Ken Norton.I would've liked to see that power in effect against a contemporary, like a Greg Page and a Michael Dokes.
Titan1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2010, 08:36 PM   #27
Doc Dynamo
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 113
vCash: 500
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

I think Cooney rates higher as a finisher than for one punch power.
Doc Dynamo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2010, 11:44 PM   #28
clinikill
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 136
vCash: 500
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

Here's an excerpt from a Sports Illustrated article on Cooney from 1987:

"Later in his career, when sparring partner Harold Rice showed him up at an exhibition at Gilley's bar in Pasadena, Texas, Cooney offered Rice $1,500 from his pocket to entice him back into his training camp, where he annihilated him, breaking two ribs with one left hook, an eardrum with another and Rice's nose with a right cross, and leaving him paralyzed below the waist for several days"


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
clinikill is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2010, 03:00 AM   #29
johnmaff36
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: ireland
Posts: 2,627
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

i dont know about the hardest puncher ever as he never proved it. What he did prove is that he could certainly hit. Cant remember who exactly said it, but in the ring interview after KOing Norton, one of his cornermen was shouting Bundini-esque that he hit so hard he shouldnt be allowed to fight. Ha!
johnmaff36 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2010, 04:20 PM   #30
Russell
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,413
vCash: 118
Default Re: Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clinikill View Post
Here's an excerpt from a Sports Illustrated article on Cooney from 1987:

"Later in his career, when sparring partner Harold Rice showed him up at an exhibition at Gilley's bar in Pasadena, Texas, Cooney offered Rice $1,500 from his pocket to entice him back into his training camp, where he annihilated him, breaking two ribs with one left hook, an eardrum with another and Rice's nose with a right cross, and leaving him paralyzed below the waist for several days"


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
What the ****?
Russell is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013