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Old 11-07-2007, 02:41 PM   #16
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Tyson and the myth of the late round comeback

But you to admit that once you had stood up to Tyson, taken his best and giving just as good, after the 6th round you were relatively safe.
Of course the same can be said about fighting Foreman and of course, only a few fighters in history could "tame" a peak Tyson during the early rounds and remain standing, and go on to win. Foreman is a bit more vulnerable to boxers in my opinion, but that's a different story.
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Old 11-07-2007, 05:29 PM   #17
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Default Re: Tyson and the myth of the late round comeback

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
But you to admit that once you had stood up to Tyson, taken his best and giving just as good, after the 6th round you were relatively safe.
Of course the same can be said about fighting Foreman and of course, only a few fighters in history could "tame" a peak Tyson during the early rounds and remain standing, and go on to win. Foreman is a bit more vulnerable to boxers in my opinion, but that's a different story.
Not quite.

What I'm saying is in short is if an opponent can set the tempo against Tyson early, chances are they can beat him period. But if he sets the tempo early, then chances are he's gonna win regardless of how many rounds it takes whether its 4 rounds or 12 rounds. So the notion of taking it to the later rounds and finding success means virtually nothing if Tyson's legitimately ahead on points because chances are he's already set the tempo.

Last edited by ironchamp; 11-07-2007 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 11-07-2007, 05:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: Tyson and the myth of the late round comeback

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius


Now, i will add that his few late round stoppages also had something to do with the durability of his opponents: if they weren't going to fall inside 6, usually they weren't going to go down at all. If Tyson was a bit less effective then he might have stopped Thomas in the 9th, or Biggs in the 10th, Botha in the 8th, etc. It's a stylistic thing: Tyson is over-agressive which leads to many early knockouts of those who couldn't take it, but few late stoppages. Same more or less applies to Dempsey.

Sums up my thoughts
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: Tyson and the myth of the late round comeback

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Originally Posted by ironchamp
Not quite.

What I'm saying is in short is if an opponent can set the tempo against Tyson early, chances are they can beat him period. But if he sets the tempo early, then chances are he's gonna win regardless of how many rounds it takes whether its 4 rounds or 12 rounds. So the notion of taking it to the later rounds and finding success means virtually nothing if Tyson's legitimately ahead on points because chances are he's already set the tempo.
Exactly! Everyone who beat a legit Tyson (exclude Williams and McBride) did NOT do so by "surviving" the early rounds, they did it by dominating them.

Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis...all three of them came out with the intent to dominate. They set the pace for the rest of the fight - they were winning the whole time.

On the other hand, guys like Smith, Tucker, Tubbs, etc. were only looking to survive the first rounds, and ended up being pounded for the entire distance.

If you let Tyson set the pace, you lose.
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:39 PM   #20
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Default Re: Tyson and the myth of the late round comeback

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Two reasons:

-The guys that DID beat him (let's say, Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis) all needed to break him down over more than 6 rounds, not including the ear-biting win of course.

-Most of Tyson's knockouts were scored during the first 6 rounds.


Combine these two and it is obvious that your best chances against him are during the late rounds.
Of course, as you pointed out, if you fight "to make it out of the first 6", you'll probably end up like Biggs or Smith. You have to control him, foul him, push him around from the opening round.


Now, i will add that his few late round stoppages also had something to do with the durability of his opponents: if they weren't going to fall inside 6, usually they weren't going to go down at all. If Tyson was a bit less effective then he might have stopped Thomas in the 9th, or Biggs in the 10th, Botha in the 8th, etc. It's a stylistic thing: Tyson is over-agressive which leads to many early knockouts of those who couldn't take it, but few late stoppages. Same more or less applies to Dempsey.


In this sense, he pales in comparison to Marciano, but then again, which puncher doesn't? Marciano has a ridiculously high stoppage record against ranked contenders that basically no one has ever topped.
First the first time ever, I agree with 100% of your post....is it a sign of the apocolyps?
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:22 PM   #21
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Default Re: Tyson and the myth of the late round comeback

Also, to further expound here on at least my own views with regards to this idea, I don't necessarily think surviving the first six rounds greatly increases anyone's chances of beating Tyson- just certain opponents. For example, I wouldn't argue that Foreman or Liston's chances against him would increase if they survived the first six rounds. They would probably be looking to put him away in that space anyway, and if they don't, there is a good chance Tyson outpoints them. A guy like, say, Ali or Holmes would probably need to be outboxing Tyson from the outset as well.

It's only in the case of fighters whose styles specifically rely upon being able to overcome faster-starting opponents with physical advantages over them that I say their chances greatly increase if they survive the first six rounds. Guys like Marciano and Frazier had styles which were designed to break down opponents who had physical advantages over them over the long haul through consistency and attrition. It was a fairly regular occurence against top opposition for them to lose the early rounds to opponents with physical and/or stylistic advantages over them, then gradually turn the tide through superior mental strength, workrate, consistency and endurance. Tyson was a guy who was a huge threat early and became less and less dangerous as a fight progressed. Something you seem to be missing with this whole concept is that guys like Razor Ruddock, Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker were certainly not heart-workrate-attrition guys; in fact, if anything, their long range endurance was inferior to Tyson's. Provided a Frazier or Marciano makes it out of the early rounds, what do you think is going to happen in the later portion of the fight, when Tyson starts to slow down, his offense loses its intensity, his workrate declines, his punches lose some of their authority, and he starts to lose his mental edge, while he's in there with guys who are famous for their unbreakable wills and penchant for wearing down and turning the tables on more skilled opponents, who will keep pounding away at him like hydraulic drills without slowing for the duration of the match? I'll tell you: Tyson will break down and lose if that happens.
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Old 11-08-2007, 12:22 AM   #22
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Default Re: Tyson and the myth of the late round comeback

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Originally Posted by radianttwilight
guys like Smith, Tucker, Tubbs, etc. were only looking to survive the first rounds, and ended up being pounded for the entire distance.

If you let Tyson set the pace, you lose.
Tubbs only had one full round against Tyson....
And he won it by outboxing him.

rewatch the tape....

God bless.
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Old 11-08-2007, 10:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: Tyson and the myth of the late round comeback

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Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Also, to further expound here on at least my own views with regards to this idea, I don't necessarily think surviving the first six rounds greatly increases anyone's chances of beating Tyson- just certain opponents. For example, I wouldn't argue that Foreman or Liston's chances against him would increase if they survived the first six rounds. They would probably be looking to put him away in that space anyway, and if they don't, there is a good chance Tyson outpoints them. A guy like, say, Ali or Holmes would probably need to be outboxing Tyson from the outset as well.

It's only in the case of fighters whose styles specifically rely upon being able to overcome faster-starting opponents with physical advantages over them that I say their chances greatly increase if they survive the first six rounds. Guys like Marciano and Frazier had styles which were designed to break down opponents who had physical advantages over them over the long haul through consistency and attrition. It was a fairly regular occurence against top opposition for them to lose the early rounds to opponents with physical and/or stylistic advantages over them, then gradually turn the tide through superior mental strength, workrate, consistency and endurance. Tyson was a guy who was a huge threat early and became less and less dangerous as a fight progressed. Something you seem to be missing with this whole concept is that guys like Razor Ruddock, Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker were certainly not heart-workrate-attrition guys; in fact, if anything, their long range endurance was inferior to Tyson's. Provided a Frazier or Marciano makes it out of the early rounds, what do you think is going to happen in the later portion of the fight, when Tyson starts to slow down, his offense loses its intensity, his workrate declines, his punches lose some of their authority, and he starts to lose his mental edge, while he's in there with guys who are famous for their unbreakable wills and penchant for wearing down and turning the tables on more skilled opponents, who will keep pounding away at him like hydraulic drills without slowing for the duration of the match? I'll tell you: Tyson will break down and lose if that happens.
I agree with the first part of your post.
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