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Old 11-05-2007, 02:29 PM   #16
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Did he do it? i have seen some sites that say he did it.
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:11 PM   #17
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
If you want to know more about Carter then Hurricane: The life of Rubin Carter, fighter by James S Hirsch could be a good starting point.
that has to be the single worst book i have ever had the misfortune to read; boring, repetitive and writing style that had you not wanting to turn over the next page, he is one author i never want to read another book written by, thankfully it filled airoplane time, so all was not lost
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
that has to be the single worst book i have ever had the misfortune to read; boring, repetitive and writing style that had you not wanting to turn over the next page, he is one author i never want to read another book written by, thankfully it filled airoplane time, so all was not lost
I think to be fair to Hirsch it was meant as a matter of fact book, with a distant feel to it. Personally I prefer that sort thing over an author getting all emotionally attached to the subject.
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
I think to be fair to Hirsch it was meant as a matter of fact book, with a distant feel to it. Personally I prefer that sort thing over an author getting all emotionally attached to the subject.
well thats were i differ, there needs to be a reason to turn over the page, rather than 'fighter a beat fighter b', there has to be a bit of intrigue, something that will make learn and think about the information you are reading. A far better boxing book, (not the best obviously) was the Sugar Ray Robinson Auto/Biography by (was it) Dave Anderson, it was insightful, interesting and you ended up finishing the book knowing alot more about the subject that when you started, when reading the Hirsh book, i couldnt wait to finish.

I cant stand books that basically regurgitate what all the writers of the day had to say, IMO that isnt real research, research is when they get off there arse to go and visit people whom where part of what was going on at the time, like for example I reading a Gene Tunney Biography at the moment and every page or so he is stealing a quote from whomever wrote for the NY morning newspapers and after while, you want more, instead of reading a quote from Damon Runyon I'd prefer to read what someone in the know like Whitey Bimstien had to say or even Jack Dempsey, that is real insight in my opinion

Another boring regurtiation of newspapers to form a book was that Ali Biography by David Remnick, in fairness I dont think his background is in boxing.

It is also better if a writer has an opinion and doesnt just sit on the fence, otherwise all they are providing is a (very) detailed report without a conclusion.

Apologies for the rant
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:14 PM   #20
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
well thats were i differ, there needs to be a reason to turn over the page, rather than 'fighter a beat fighter b', there has to be a bit of intrigue, something that will make learn and think about the information you are reading. A far better boxing book, (not the best obviously) was the Sugar Ray Robinson Auto/Biography by (was it) Dave Anderson, it was insightful, interesting and you ended up finishing the book knowing alot more about the subject that when you started, when reading the Hirsh book, i couldnt wait to finish.

I cant stand books that basically regurgitate what all the writers of the day had to say, IMO that isnt real research, research is when they get off there arse to go and visit people whom where part of what was going on at the time, like for example I reading a Gene Tunney Biography at the moment and every page or so he is stealing a quote from whomever wrote for the NY morning newspapers and after while, you want more, instead of reading a quote from Damon Runyon I'd prefer to read what someone in the know like Whitey Bimstien had to say or even Jack Dempsey, that is real insight in my opinion

Another boring regurtiation of newspapers to form a book was that Ali Biography by David Remnick, in fairness I dont think his background is in boxing.

It is also better if a writer has an opinion and doesnt just sit on the fence, otherwise all they are providing is a (very) detailed report without a conclusion.

Apologies for the rant
I do not think you cannot dispute Hirsch did his homework; the way he wrote it up may not be to your taste, that is fair enough.

Personally I do not like authors giving opinions unless of course it is an autobiography, but normally I avoid them...
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:31 PM   #21
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
I do not think you cannot dispute Hirsch did his homework; the way he wrote it up may not be to your taste, that is fair enough.
I never said he didnt do his homework, I just didnt find his writing style (or the structure of the book, for that matter) very appealing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
Personally I do not like authors giving opinions unless of course it is an autobiography, but normally I avoid them...
Whats the point in reading the book, if your not interested in finding out what the writer's opinions are about the subject, otherwise you may as well be looking at a spreadsheet of information
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:10 PM   #22
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
I never said he didnt do his homework, I just didnt find his writing style (or the structure of the book, for that matter) very appealing.

Whats the point in reading the book, if your not interested in finding out what the writer's opinions are about the subject, otherwise you may as well be looking at a spreadsheet of information
Yes I would prefer to look at a spreadsheet of information, that way you can formulate your own opinion. I got to admit I am not most articulate and creative person, and generally do not like people who are; I guess I am jealous.
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Same story, same target, different time
Cyclical reaction from the prisoners of the bilnd
Trying to fight time, it's a battle of the mind
Waiting for redemption, surviving in a bind

Same story, same target, different time
Cyclical reaction from the prisoners of the blind
Trying to fight time, it's a battle of the mind
Waiting for redemption, surviving in a bind

[Black Thought]
Yo, talk about paying the ultimate price
Hurricane been incarcerated all of his life
Started out at like twelve
Trapped in a belly of hell
Grew into a man inside of a cell
Yo, anger just swell up
At a early age that develop
Hot head and now it ain't shit y'all could tell him
They said he's on a road to become a felon
But instead he swung blows that'll spilt your melon
He did his thing and was the king of the ring, undisputed
Started making noise but they tried to mute it
They put him through it
For him to make the system look stupid, [yo]
They rather look you in the face and shoot it
And leave your spot looted [or what]
Or leave your whole life blank futured and caught
When you scream at it and do it
With sweat leaking from the outline of your soluid
Don't understand the point that you at
Or how the hell you came to it?
Flashback to images of that night, out in Patterson
They pulled him over heading home from a gathering
And when they told him the charge it kind of baffled him
Murder in the first for the champ, we on that again?

Chorus

Hurricane
Accuse a Hurricane
Ain't change a damned shame
It's life for Hurricane, Hurricane

[Black Thought]
*overtop of sung chorus*
Forever, imagine your locked down forever
Could y'all stand the weather?
Could you hold it together?
You tell me that you know the pain
Yo, imagine if your life was like a hurricane, a hurricane
Forever, imagine your locked down forever
Could ya'll stand the weather?
You built for that weather?
Yo, know what'm saying?
Know what'm saying?

[Common]
You gotta fight for what you believe in
Nobody knows the troubles seen
This flick left me wondering
'What can become of kings and young kids?'
Summer dream deferred, incident occured, freedom blurred
A freedom that would only be retrieved again in words, later on
The cops, y'all know what they be on

A *****'s life is like a field that they play upon, away and gone from
Natural lifer, a soul he had to fight,
Learn it himself, sleep days, stay up half the night
Amongst dead man walking, he got afterlife exercising,
Developing his knack to write
Never leaving his cell, in this world he trapped himself
What he loved on the outside world, detached himself
You know the cards Blacks get dealt by the system
He drew a picture of freedom with many dimensions
This picture proved to be bigger than Black and White
A young soul named Lesra brought him back to life
It's amazing to a man what a book could do
And how certain books seem to look for you
This is the story of a champion's fall and rise
The story left me wiping my eyes
Peace Ru


Chorus

Hurricane
Accuse a Hurricane
Ain't change a damned shame
It's life for Hurricane, Hurricane

[Black Thought]
*overtop of sung chorus*
Yo, yo, forever, imagine your locked down forever
Could y'all stand the weather?
Could you hold it together?
You tell me that you know the pain
Yo, imagine if your life was like a hurricane, a hurricane
Forever and ever yo, locked down forever
Could you stand the weather?
Yo, yo i can't even explain the pain
Just imagine if your life was like a hurricane

[Mos Def]
Yes, I am the inescapable, the irresistible,
The unnegotiable, the unchallenged [who dat?]
I am time
I scroll in measurements, control the elements,
I hold the evidence, I tell the story [say what?]
I am time
I know no prejudice, I bare no sentiments
For wealth or settlement, I move forward [who you?]
I am time
You can't recover me, conceal or smuggle me,
Retreat or run from me, crawl up or under me,
You can't do much for me besides serve
Me well and have good dividends returned to you
Or attempt to kill me off and have me murder you
Many have wasted me but now they are facing me,
Treated me unfaithfully and now endure me painfully
Plaintively, I wait to see what history will shape to be,
Who's hearts will never die inside the sake of me
Angel's scribe the page for me,
Keep a full account of all the names for me
And make a special mark for Hurricane who (?) patiently

Chorus

Hurricane
Accuse a Hurricane
Ain't change a damned shame
It's life for Hurricane, Hurricane

[Black Thought]
*overtop of sung chorus*
Yo, yo, a Hurricane forever,
Imagine your locked down forever
Could you stand the weather?
Could you hold it together?
I can't even explain the pain
Imagine if your life was like a hurricane, a hurricane
Forever, imagine your locked down forever and ever, ever
Could you hold it together?
Yo, can't explain the pain with words, know'm saying?
Just imagine if your life was like a hurricane

[Verse 4]
The clouds clashed and the heaven's gave birth to star
God placed it in a man on the day he was born
Convicted minutes after, a true natural disaster
Framed for manslaughter, the Hurricane Carter rising
From out the south water, like torrential rains
In the ring no opponent escaped unscathed
You can't believe the world we live in's injust
All I see is more proof, there's no place for us
They had my man Carter locked in a cage, like an animal
Drive him to the point where the mind work mechanical
Or works by remote control
It was done to all of us, they tapped directly into our soul
Either it's sing-sing, or it's bars around your mind
There's no where to run, no where to hide
In a six-by-six a guilty man cries
For repentance and lost is what innocence is


Same story, same target, different time
Cyclical reaction from the prisoners of the bilnd
Trying to fight time, it's a battle of the mind
Waiting for redemption, surviving in a bind

Same story, same target, different time
Cyclical reaction from the prisoners of the blind
Trying to fight time, it's a battle of the mind
Waiting for redemption, surviving in a bind


Chorus

Hurricane
Accuse a Hurricane
Ain't change a damned shame
It's life for Hurricane, Hurricane

[Black Thought]
*overtop of sung chorus*
Your locked down forever
Could you stand the weather?
Could you hold it together?
I can't even explain the pain, know'm saying?
Your life was like a hurricane, a hurricane
Forever, imagine behind bars forever
Could you stand the weather?
You built for that? Is you cut for that?
Don't be telling me that you know the pain
Your life was like a hurricane, yo

Same story, same target, different time
Cyclical reaction from the prisoners of the bilnd
Trying to fight time, it's a battle of the mind
Waiting for redemption, surviving in a bind

Same story, same target, different time
Cyclical reaction from the prisoners of the blind
Trying to fight time, it's a battle of the mind
Waiting for redemption, surviving in a bind
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:15 PM   #24
TBooze
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Posts: 10,569
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantage_West
Same story, same target, different time
Cyclical reaction from the prisoners of the bilnd
Trying to fight time, it's a battle of the mind
Waiting for redemption, surviving in a bind

Same story, same target, different time
Cyclical reaction from the prisoners of the blind
Trying to fight time, it's a battle of the mind
Waiting for redemption, surviving in a bind

[Black Thought]
Yo, talk about paying the ultimate price
Hurricane been incarcerated all of his life
Started out at like twelve
Trapped in a belly of hell
Grew into a man inside of a cell
Yo, anger just swell up
At a early age that develop
Hot head and now it ain't shit y'all could tell him
They said he's on a road to become a felon
But instead he swung blows that'll spilt your melon
He did his thing and was the king of the ring, undisputed
Started making noise but they tried to mute it
They put him through it
For him to make the system look stupid, [yo]
They rather look you in the face and shoot it
And leave your spot looted [or what]
Or leave your whole life blank futured and caught
When you scream at it and do it
With sweat leaking from the outline of your soluid
Don't understand the point that you at
Or how the hell you came to it?
Flashback to images of that night, out in Patterson
They pulled him over heading home from a gathering
And when they told him the charge it kind of baffled him
Murder in the first for the champ, we on that again?

Chorus

Hurricane
Accuse a Hurricane
Ain't change a damned shame
It's life for Hurricane, Hurricane

[Black Thought]
*overtop of sung chorus*
Forever, imagine your locked down forever
Could y'all stand the weather?
Could you hold it together?
You tell me that you know the pain
Yo, imagine if your life was like a hurricane, a hurricane
Forever, imagine your locked down forever
Could ya'll stand the weather?
You built for that weather?
Yo, know what'm saying?
Know what'm saying?

[Common]
You gotta fight for what you believe in
Nobody knows the troubles seen
This flick left me wondering
'What can become of kings and young kids?'
Summer dream deferred, incident occured, freedom blurred
A freedom that would only be retrieved again in words, later on
The cops, y'all know what they be on

A *****'s life is like a field that they play upon, away and gone from
Natural lifer, a soul he had to fight,
Learn it himself, sleep days, stay up half the night
Amongst dead man walking, he got afterlife exercising,
Developing his knack to write
Never leaving his cell, in this world he trapped himself
What he loved on the outside world, detached himself
You know the cards Blacks get dealt by the system
He drew a picture of freedom with many dimensions
This picture proved to be bigger than Black and White
A young soul named Lesra brought him back to life
It's amazing to a man what a book could do
And how certain books seem to look for you
This is the story of a champion's fall and rise
The story left me wiping my eyes
Peace Ru


Chorus

Hurricane
Accuse a Hurricane
Ain't change a damned shame
It's life for Hurricane, Hurricane

[Black Thought]
*overtop of sung chorus*
Yo, yo, forever, imagine your locked down forever
Could y'all stand the weather?
Could you hold it together?
You tell me that you know the pain
Yo, imagine if your life was like a hurricane, a hurricane
Forever and ever yo, locked down forever
Could you stand the weather?
Yo, yo i can't even explain the pain
Just imagine if your life was like a hurricane

[Mos Def]
Yes, I am the inescapable, the irresistible,
The unnegotiable, the unchallenged [who dat?]
I am time
I scroll in measurements, control the elements,
I hold the evidence, I tell the story [say what?]
I am time
I know no prejudice, I bare no sentiments
For wealth or settlement, I move forward [who you?]
I am time
You can't recover me, conceal or smuggle me,
Retreat or run from me, crawl up or under me,
You can't do much for me besides serve
Me well and have good dividends returned to you
Or attempt to kill me off and have me murder you
Many have wasted me but now they are facing me,
Treated me unfaithfully and now endure me painfully
Plaintively, I wait to see what history will shape to be,
Who's hearts will never die inside the sake of me
Angel's scribe the page for me,
Keep a full account of all the names for me
And make a special mark for Hurricane who (?) patiently

Chorus

Hurricane
Accuse a Hurricane
Ain't change a damned shame
It's life for Hurricane, Hurricane

[Black Thought]
*overtop of sung chorus*
Yo, yo, a Hurricane forever,
Imagine your locked down forever
Could you stand the weather?
Could you hold it together?
I can't even explain the pain
Imagine if your life was like a hurricane, a hurricane
Forever, imagine your locked down forever and ever, ever
Could you hold it together?
Yo, can't explain the pain with words, know'm saying?
Just imagine if your life was like a hurricane

[Verse 4]
The clouds clashed and the heaven's gave birth to star
God placed it in a man on the day he was born
Convicted minutes after, a true natural disaster
Framed for manslaughter, the Hurricane Carter rising
From out the south water, like torrential rains
In the ring no opponent escaped unscathed
You can't believe the world we live in's injust
All I see is more proof, there's no place for us
They had my man Carter locked in a cage, like an animal
Drive him to the point where the mind work mechanical
Or works by remote control
It was done to all of us, they tapped directly into our soul
Either it's sing-sing, or it's bars around your mind
There's no where to run, no where to hide
In a six-by-six a guilty man cries
For repentance and lost is what innocence is


Same story, same target, different time
Cyclical reaction from the prisoners of the bilnd
Trying to fight time, it's a battle of the mind
Waiting for redemption, surviving in a bind

Same story, same target, different time
Cyclical reaction from the prisoners of the blind
Trying to fight time, it's a battle of the mind
Waiting for redemption, surviving in a bind


Chorus

Hurricane
Accuse a Hurricane
Ain't change a damned shame
It's life for Hurricane, Hurricane

[Black Thought]
*overtop of sung chorus*
Your locked down forever
Could you stand the weather?
Could you hold it together?
I can't even explain the pain, know'm saying?
Your life was like a hurricane, a hurricane
Forever, imagine behind bars forever
Could you stand the weather?
You built for that? Is you cut for that?
Don't be telling me that you know the pain
Your life was like a hurricane, yo

Same story, same target, different time
Cyclical reaction from the prisoners of the bilnd
Trying to fight time, it's a battle of the mind
Waiting for redemption, surviving in a bind

Same story, same target, different time
Cyclical reaction from the prisoners of the blind
Trying to fight time, it's a battle of the mind
Waiting for redemption, surviving in a bind
Dylan's song was better (IMO), although he soon disappeared when the going got tough and Carter's struggle was not so mainstream anymore.
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:52 PM   #25
Vantage_West
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Quote:
Originally Posted by fg2227
Did he do it? i have seen some sites that say he did it.
well i say he did maybe not the whole shoot out but he was part of it.

but to tell the truth he is a idol of an inocant man against the system.
there are loads of icons that are true monsters in life but the subject isnt the personality but what they did.
it's the robin hood, che guevara, valery sablin all of them were either poachers, robbers revolutionaries and snipers but in the end they are hero's andare people who semingly stood up for others.

thats what makes him a cult figure , becuase he didnt stay in prison and sulk he said "no" and tried to force everytihgn of him becuase he felt he was wrongfully encacerated...this si what he brings a hope to the man who had been locked away to activly fight back
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
Dylan's song was better (IMO), although he soon disappeared when the going got tough and Carter's struggle was not so mainstream anymore.
oh i'm not judging just adding to the thread
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Old 11-08-2007, 07:39 AM   #27
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
that has to be the single worst book i have ever had the misfortune to read; boring, repetitive and writing style that had you not wanting to turn over the next page, he is one author i never want to read another book written by, thankfully it filled airoplane time, so all was not lost
Yeah i tried reading it to.. and didnt really rate it....

i always got like a few chapters in a put it down thinkin i'll come back to it later but never did until id forgotten the start and had to read it again and the cycle repeated itself...

i really wanna get a copy of The Sixteenth Round
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:20 PM   #28
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Quote:
Originally Posted by fg2227
Did he do it? i have seen some sites that say he did it.
After reading various reports over the years and interviews from many close to him, I am now virtually convinced he was GUILTY as sin of those murders.
Go over to the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and talk to Ron Lipton or another fellow (Mike something?) One or both of them were (and still are to a degree) friends of Reuben's; I think Ron sparred with him way back when and they're convinced of his guilt. They'll give you insight into the man that the biased movie completely skews.
The fact that he's on the street today comes only from all the legal indescrepencies that occurred during his first trial which led to his aquittal in the second.

Giardello boxed his ears off; which most slick contenders could do and by the 8th or 9th round Carter basically knew he wasn't going to get to him and basically lost his moxie and coasted home a fairly wide loser in that one...
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:50 PM   #29
TBooze
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Quote:
Originally Posted by jowcol
After reading various reports over the years and interviews from many close to him, I am now virtually convinced he was GUILTY as sin of those murders.
Go over to the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and talk to Ron Lipton or another fellow (Mike something?) One or both of them were (and still are to a degree) friends of Reuben's; I think Ron sparred with him way back when and they're convinced of his guilt. They'll give you insight into the man that the biased movie completely skews.
The fact that he's on the street today comes only from all the legal indescrepencies that occurred during his first trial which led to his aquittal in the second.

Giardello boxed his ears off; which most slick contenders could do and by the 8th or 9th round Carter basically knew he wasn't going to get to him and basically lost his moxie and coasted home a fairly wide loser in that one...
Well actually Carter lost both trials, but both so flawed it was unbelivable...

Carter was not the nicest person in the world, but he should never of been convicted of a crime he did not commit. On top of this I think people forget John Artis who was be all accounts a very decent man.
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:52 PM   #30
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Default Re: Rubin Carter

Giardello did not box his ears off.

He looked old and the fight was very close.

I say this being fully aware of the way it was portrayed as a bullshit robbery in the film.It was'nt but it also wasn't a boxing lessong by any means
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