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Old 07-15-2010, 05:32 PM   #46
The Morlocks
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by itrymariti View Post
Hilariously, a lot of the people picking Greb here would probably pick Monzon over Greb, despite the fact that Robinson can employ Monzon's style better than Monzon.
they fought nothing like each other. I saw almost all the Monzon fights title on tv when they were fought and have 15 of his fights and he fought nothing like Sugar Ray.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:35 PM   #47
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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You imply I have an agenda to push...So please correct me..If I think that Harry Greb would have beaten Ray Robinson and had a more accomplished resume,that means I and others who share my opinion have an AGENDA. And conversely the posters who just as vigorously claim Ray
Robinson a better fighter are not painted with the same AGENDA label !
Doesn't make sense or fairness to me..
Please tell me with respect, what agenda are we pushing.? Please dont imply that I have a hidden motive in preferring Greb over Robinson..
His record speaks for itself as I and numerous posters sincerely believe...
I'm not implying anything, I'm stating it clearly...and I'll stand by what I wrote in that McGrain's post was the most objective (by far actually).
I also believe that Greb's record speaks for itself, as does Robinson's for that matter. For the record (for myself) I think Greb just may be the best (or one of) P4P fighters period...and I have no difficulty in someone picking Greb over Robinson...But the point to be made here is this...when posters (not necessarily you BB) denegrade HOF fighters for their purposes (or views) it reaks of a biase that really has no basis in an objective discussion in the subject and it proves the underlying motive...and quite frankly it's hogwash to demean the careers of some great/good fighters.
As for a fight itself between Greb and Robinson at middle? I would take Robinson at the weight by decision...but not with certainty by any means. If Greb presents stylistically to the scant footage of Overlin, Robinson would have difficulty...but as you've pointed out many times where Greb succeeded against heavier opposition it was through his physicality, but mainly his speed. IMO he does not possess a speed advantage over Robinson...and Robinson is still rated as one of the better punchers, even at middle.
Your reference to Greb's superiority over Robinson due to Greb's success against heavier fighters carries some weight in the fact that Robinson could not/would not fight heavier fighters...but there is another side that carries equal weight. Sometimes fighters are troubled less with by size than by speed! Nonetheless, Greb was amazing...BUT Robinson was too!
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:36 PM   #48
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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I'm picking Ray Robby cuz I have footage up the yin and yang of his........... When it comes to Harry Greb, all I have is press clippings and still photos, etc..... C'mon, do the math here........

Was Greb really more skilled or powerful than Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano, Carl Olsen, Randy Turpin, Carmine Basilio or Eugene Fullmer?

Greb had a good muscular build with big biceps for a 155 to 160 pounder, but Greb was never known to be a wicked "One-Shot" banger....... Greb was an aggressive unit with average defensive skills.........

Ray Robinson of pre 1953 is just too much of a complete fighter with too much speed, skill, reflex, power, savvy and charisma to get beat by the grude Harry Greb.........

MR.BILL
your knowledge of Greb is pathetic. You might as well be talking about Vinny the bum Pazienza. Almost everything you said was wrong exccept the power part and that they said is because he never sat in the same place ong enough to sit down on his punches. **** man, read what Arcel, Bimstein, Brown, Blackburn and those guys said about him. Bimstein said it best, "I don't put anyone over Greb".
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:37 PM   #49
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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I do not wish to demean the record of the best fighter I ever saw Ray Robinson.I regard Ray, and Greb,and Langford along with old Fitz,as the best P4P fighters for their skills and ability to beat larger men..Robinson
for his all around skills and Greb, Langford and Fitz for giving away weight
and prevailing....Right or wrong that is my "agenda"...
Gotcha.
Respect, BB.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:39 PM   #50
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Robinson was a great WW, and very good MW.

The MW SRR lost against Turpin, Fulmer and WW Basilio.

Greb was a great MW. Greb held his own on most occasions with, and beat Gene Tunney officially once. He sparred with and did well against Dempsey.

Greb would be just too overwhelming for MW Robinson.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:49 PM   #51
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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they fought nothing like each other. I saw almost all the Monzon fights title on tv when they were fought and have 15 of his fights and he fought nothing like Sugar Ray.
No, but what I am saying is that Robinson could pull off a pressure-neutralising distance-control strategy better than Monzon, and has a win over Lamotta which is in that regard (and really in any regard) better than any Monzon has at the weight.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:51 PM   #52
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

You might as well start bringing up Greb's losses to Whitey Wenzel and George Chip.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:57 PM   #53
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

I remember watching SRR on TV in the 50's.

He had slipped by the time he got there and his reputation carried him through on some occasions.

Tiger Jones beat him in a non-title fight.....but never got a shot at Robby's title like the old champs use to do if they lost in non-title goes.

Basilio really hated SRR....and Fulmer didn't like him much either.
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:26 PM   #54
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Bogash was a hell of a fighter that you, through your obvious ignorance of him, are selling short. Bogash was strong as hell, durable, and had a wealth of experience. He gave Greb a good fight but Greb clearly won as evidenced by the opinions of everyone but two or three very vocal anti-Greb New York sportswriters who filed their stories for the AP and thus got them wider play than the majority who wrote that Greb won handily. Bogash drew with the great Jack Britton for the welterweight title, drew with Soldier Bartfield, another underrated and excellent spoiler of the era, drew with Mike ODowd, drew with Mike McTigue, actually defeated Mickey Walker right before Walker won the WW title, drew with Augie Ratner, defeated Pal Reed, Jackie Clarke, Tommy Loughran, Jack McCarron, Bryan Downey, Jimmy Darcy, Panama Joe Gans, Jock Malone, Frank Moody, Tiger Flowers, Allentown Joe Gans all of whom were championship calibre or just a step below. In nearly 200 fights he was stopped just once. And you wanna argue that because Greb had a rough night against him he was somehow a lesser fighter than Kid Gavilan of all people? It isnt out of the question to suggest that Bogash could have beaten Gavilan or even Robinson for that matter yet somehow Greb having a tough fight with him is a stain on his career? A half blind Greb. Not the Greb of 1919 that we are talking about in this mythical matchup. A half blind, thirty year old fighter who has around 200 fights. Thats a hell of an argument McGrain LOL. If thats the best you can do I can safely rest my case HAHAHA
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:32 PM   #55
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

The more i read of your heavy handed posts the more i lose any anticipation for your book.

just saying.
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:35 PM   #56
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

If you believe that, and believe that my defense of Bogash is unjustified, or that he wasnt worthy of it then my book isnt being written for you.

Just saying.
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:40 PM   #57
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Robinson is better
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:41 PM   #58
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Always a pleasure where you're concerned DP.



Greb fought at MW, LHW and HW.

Robinson fought at LW, WW and MW and had a punt at LHW.

Just for the record Greb fought LW, WW, MW, LHW, and HW. He turned pro as a lightweight, or rather just above the LW limit. and spent a year + fighting as a WW... People always try to use Robinsons start as a LW as some kind of caveat when talking about a H2H matchup with Greb and dont realize that Greb started out within a few pounds of Robinson. Yes he grew into a naturally stockier fighter who at his best weighed about 10 pounds more than Robinson at his best BUT lets not pretend that this means Greb somehow had a natural aptitude for taking on big badasses that he did and somehow Robinson didnt. The fact of the matter is that even if you shave ten pounds off the biggest/best guys that Greb faced Robinson still doesnt compare in terms of his ability to climb in weight. He was a five time MW champ because he lost five times (and not always against the best opponents) and got stopped bad enough (by his own admission) against Joe Maxim (who in my opinion was not that great) that he walked away for boxing for two years and NEVER came close to trying another run above 160.
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:53 PM   #59
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

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Gotcha.
Respect, BB.
dpw,I feel exactly as you do about Sugar Ray who i saw for the first time as a lad against henry armstrong i n MSG 1943. Then when he destroyed a tough Irishman jimmy mcDaniels MSG in 1945,and twice after culminating
with his come from behind stoppage of Randy Turpin at the old defunct Polo Grounds, Sept 12,1951...No one was more beautiful as a fighter than Robinson.He eeked class...A will to win second to none was Ray...
And my dad who saw Harry Greb fight and murder,the 13 pound heavier and younger Gene Tunney in the old MSG in 1922, whilst on the downgrade,worshipped the Pittsburgh Windmill...He also saw Mickey Walker and all the Robinson fights I saw[of course, he took me],and other Robinson fights I didn't see...He loved Robby but always maintained that
Greb would have been too "tough' for Ray...We will never know of course
but Greb was ONE TOUGH BASTARD, even with ONE EYE !!...b.b.
P.S. I still have the ticket stub of the Robinson/Turpin fight in 1951..
Wonder what it's value is now ??...b.b.
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Old 07-16-2010, 02:21 AM   #60
itrymariti
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Writing a book step 1: Learn to paragraph
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