Harry Greb vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by itrymariti

Writing a book step 1: Learn to paragraph

True. I'm hoping a good editor can help convert Klomptons massive knowledge on Greb into an awesome read........because, although he gets some flak around here, I find him an incredibly useful and insightful poster.

Although I also agree with Lora's sentiment.

[klompton]

Originally Posted by itrymariti

Writing a book step 1: Learn to paragraph

writing on a forum setp 1: dont waste your time with proper structure as 90% of the people reading it wont know the difference, wont care, or wont wont waste theirs.

And for the record Ive made it clear in several posts that a good editor will be half the battle in this book.

[Boilermaker]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

True. I'm hoping a good editor can help convert Klomptons massive knowledge on Greb into an awesome read........because, although he gets some flak around here, I find him an incredibly useful and insightful poster.

Although I also agree with Lora's sentiment.

You agree he is too heavy handed? I think that was one of the most ridiculous comments i have heard, but maybe i dont take these message boards as personal or serious as some?

From what i have seen Klompton isnt afraid to put up an against the grain opinion. What did he do in this thread say Sugar Ray was great but not unbeatable? Because he was right.

Anyway, since poor old Sugar seems to be taking a bit ofa shellacking from everyone (by his standards anyway), i think i am going to come down on Rays side in this fight (and to be honest they are both great enough that either one could beat the other on any given night, imo). However, on tonight, i am leaning towards Ray. I notice from Greb's record, that he rarely stopped most of his fighters, he nearly always beat them on points. I think that this indicates taht despite the fact that he has a far better record against the bigger opponents (and i know he carried manyopponents), he probably isnt really that big a puncher and he is unlikely to actually stop Sugar Ray.

Much of this discussion in this thread is about what Greb would do to Sugar, but their is another side to things. Sugar will be faster than what Greb is used to, and he hits straighter andis more technically orthodox. This is going to cause him more problems than what a big hitting middleweight would cause Greb. Greb will have difficulties using his speed to dart in and out when he is the slower boxer. And if Greb wins he will have to win on points, because neither fighter is getting a knockout against the other here. Both are simply too great to allow it. I think that Ray can get the Decision here, despite Greb having the better legacy and generally being a better head to head middleweight.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

You agree he is too heavy handed? I think that was one of the most ridiculous comments i have heard, but maybe i dont take these message boards as personal or serious as some?

From what i have seen Klompton isnt afraid to put up an against the grain opinion. What did he do in this thread say Sugar Ray was great but not unbeatable? Because he was right.

Anyway, since poor old Sugar seems to be taking a bit ofa shellacking from everyone (by his standards anyway), i think i am going to come down on Rays side in this fight (and to be honest they are both great enough that either one could beat the other on any given night, imo). However, on tonight, i am leaning towards Ray. I notice from Greb's record, that he rarely stopped most of his fighters, he nearly always beat them on points. I think that this indicates taht despite the fact that he has a far better record against the bigger opponents (and i know he carried manyopponents), he probably isnt really that big a puncher and he is unlikely to actually stop Sugar Ray.

Much of this discussion in this thread is about what Greb would do to Sugar, but their is another side to things. Sugar will be faster than what Greb is used to, and he hits straighter andis more technically orthodox. This is going to cause him more problems than what a big hitting middleweight would cause Greb. Greb will have difficulties using his speed to dart in and out when he is the slower boxer. And if Greb wins he will have to win on points, because neither fighter is getting a knockout against the other here. Both are simply too great to allow it. I think that Ray can get the Decision here, despite Greb having the better legacy and generally being a better head to head middleweight.

Generally a good analysis except for one point you make...My all spectator accounts ,Robinjson was not faster than Harry Greb,hand or foot...
Robinson hit harder it is true,but Greb did not get hit solidly as often as
Ray did...If that were the case Greb would not have fought 300 career bouts against light heavies and heavies,and except for his first year,
\against a bigger and more experienced Joe Chip,Harry Greb was never
stopped in his amazing 300 bout career,aside from Kid Graves bout in which Harry broke an arm...And the main reason was his Greb's foot
speed and stamina, which most often kept him out of harm's way...

[Boilermaker]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Generally a good analysis except for one point you make...My all spectator accounts ,Robinjson was not faster than Harry Greb,hand or foot...
Robinson hit harder it is true,but Greb did not get hit solidly as often as
Ray did...If that were the case Greb would not have fought 300 career bouts against light heavies and heavies,and except for his first year,
\against a bigger and more experienced Joe Chip,Harry Greb was never
stopped in his amazing 300 bout career,aside from Kid Graves bout in which Harry broke an arm...And the main reason was his Greb's foot
speed and stamina, which most often kept him out of harm's way...

You may be correct. I wouldnt be surprised if Greb was quicker than Ray. But, the point is that Ray is quicker than most of the opponents Greb did well against. And i think that Greb might be troubled more by speedy boxer (particularly one with power as well) than by a big hitter. I think this is a similar situation to say a Muhammed Ali, who pretty much loved facing the bigger hitters. I dont think that Ray hitting harder than Greb would have any effect on Greb, but the fact that he hits hard and with his speed may land far more often that many of the guys who had Rays level of power is waht could trouble Greb. And no mattere what either of us thinks, there is no way to tell whether Greb or Ray is quicker. I hear what you are saying, but I dont think consensus would necessarilly make Ray the slower fighter (between guys who saw both?).

It is a funny situation when you think about it, the naturally smaller fighter quite possibly hits harder but is slower. Who wins, the Stronger little man or the slower big man

[yaca you]

does anyone know why no video of grebs fights exist?

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

You may be correct. I wouldnt be surprised if Greb was quicker than Ray. But, the point is that Ray is quicker than most of the opponents Greb did well against. And i think that Greb might be troubled more by speedy boxer (particularly one with power as well) than by a big hitter. I think this is a similar situation to say a Muhammed Ali, who pretty much loved facing the bigger hitters. I dont think that Ray hitting harder than Greb would have any effect on Greb, but the fact that he hits hard and with his speed may land far more often that many of the guys who had Rays level of power is waht could trouble Greb. And no mattere what either of us thinks, there is no way to tell whether Greb or Ray is quicker. I hear what you are saying, but I dont think consensus would necessarilly make Ray the slower fighter (between guys who saw both?).

It is a funny situation when you think about it, the naturally smaller fighter quite possibly hits harder but is slower. Who wins, the Stronger little man or the slower big man

The origin of punching power is a mystery.Big powerful and muscular men cant break an egg, while a bag of bones Lew Jenkins could hit a ton...
In the case of Ray Robinson.tall at almost 6 ft, with sloping shoulders
that made his arms reach his target sooner, with whip like muscular
arms, along with great hand speed , made him a formidable puncher...
In the shorter Greb's case,Harry never anchored himself with his punches
as he was perpetual motion on the move...But as Gene Tunney stated
"Greb could punish"..Volleys upon volleys of punches kept his opponents
so busy defending themselves round after round...Some British
middleweight who Greb stopped was quoted as saying, "i thought the ceiling opened up and a roomful of gloves descended upon me ".
Greb and Robinson two different immortals ,both with a will to win, second
to none. IMO...

[itrymariti]

Has there ever been a fantasy match-up thread in which burt hasn't favoured the old-timer?

[Cmoyle]

“You agree he is too heavy handed? I think that was one of the most ridiculous comments i have heard, but maybe i dont take these message boards as personal or serious as some?”

I cannot speak for Lora or Flea Man, but maybe this is the reason for their comments:
Lora’s post was right after a post by Klompton that began as follows: “Bogash was a hell of a fighter that you, through your obvious ignorance of him, are selling short.”

Maybe it’s just me, but I think that sentence would have been just as effective if the words “through your obvious ignorance of him” had been omitted and it instead read “Bogash was a hell of a fighter that you are selling short.”

Not to pick on Klompton, because I see this kind of thing from a number of individuals on all the boxing forums that I look in on from time to time, but I just don’t understand the need to take those kind of shots at one another and can’t help but wonder how many people get turned off and just quit participating in these forums as a result.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by klompton

Just for the record Greb fought LW, WW, MW, LHW, and HW. He turned pro as a lightweight, or rather just above the LW limit. and spent a year + fighting as a WW... People always try to use Robinsons start as a LW as some kind of caveat when talking about a H2H matchup with Greb and dont realize that Greb started out within a few pounds of Robinson

That's grand - thanks for the heads up. Is Greb's weight (given by boxrec) for December 1914's clash with Joe Borrell accurate? He is given as weighing just above 170 at that time. This is less than one year after his debut. Your thoughts?

Further to your remarks about the LW "caveat",Greb being smaller as a teen, how do you mean? How does Greb being smaller as a youth impact thoughts on a h2h match up?

lets not pretend that this means Greb somehow had a natural aptitude for taking on big badasses that he did and somehow Robinson didnt.

But this is exactly the case?

[SLAKKA]

My take,
We discuss old timers and we adapt a Stillmans gym attitude in our posts.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by yaca you

does anyone know why no video of grebs fights exist?

This is one of boxing's great mysteries. Greb-Tunney I and Greb-Walker were definitely filmed. There have been rumors for years that Greb-Walker is indeed in private hands. Tunney-Carpentier was filmed, and it seems highly improbable that Greb-Tunney IV in Cleveland wasn't filmed less than two months later. But there are not even accounts of these films being viewed in movie theaters. Nobody alive today saw Greb compete in the flesh, but one might expect somebody still around to have seen footage of Harry back in the 1930s and 1940s. Nothing.

Beyond that, Greb's hometown was also the home of pioneering radio station KDKA, which broadcast Greb-Tunney I from MSG II (an arena which the colorful Mickey Walker referred to as "the old, smelly one"), and presumably a number of Harry's other fights, especially from Motor Square Garden in Pittsburgh. But Bill Cayton had a number of fight broadcast recordings, and nothing of Greb's. The post Johnson-Jeffries ban on the interstate transport of boxing films did not extend to audio recordings. KDKA's 1920 announcement of Harding's election as President exists in pristine form, so one might expect recordings of Harry's bouts and even interviews to have been conducted with the man himself. If not, that's an incredible opportunity which was lost.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Cmoyle

Not to pick on Klompton, because I see this kind of thing from a number of individuals on all the boxing forums that I look in on from time to time, but I just don’t understand the need to take those kind of shots at one another and can’t help but wonder how many people get turned off and just quit participating in these forums as a result.

True Blue.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

This is one of boxing's great mysteries.

Am I wrong in saying that a great deal of film was consumed film was grabbed in support of the war effort? Something to do with parachutes if memory serves.

[klompton]

Originally Posted by McGrain

That's grand - thanks for the heads up. Is Greb's weight (given by boxrec) for December 1914's clash with Joe Borrell accurate? He is given as weighing just above 170 at that time. This is less than one year after his debut. Your thoughts?

Further to your remarks about the LW "caveat",Greb being smaller as a teen, how do you mean? How does Greb being smaller as a youth impact thoughts on a h2h match up?



But this is exactly the case?

Yes the weight is accurate. At that point, the end of 1914, Greb had grown into a middleweight. Weighing in the mid 150s. When he fought Borrell he had not been in training because he was living in Philadelphia trying to break into the big time and having no luck getting fights. He was averaging about a fight a month and hadnt fought in almost a month. He attended the Borrell bout as a spectator and when Borrells opponent couldnt fight Greb offered his services from the audience. All of the papers state that at 170 Greb was out of shape, in no condition to fight and one even calls him "hog fat" That being said I wouldnt doubt if Greb weighed in wearing his clothes which in December in Philadelphia during that time period would have probably added several pounds.