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Old 08-29-2010, 02:29 AM   #31
James23
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Originally Posted by Popkins View Post
Exactly.

MMA utilized aspects of different disciplines, but those aspects are adapted into an MMA framework.

Thus, MMA is a separate and individual discipline in itself now.

The TS does not understand this at all.
I guess you have difficulty understand what I'm saying? I've been saying that on here since I joined.

However, you're stating that MMA has always been that for all of it's practicioners. MMA is a new discipline which was evolved through the competition of pure individualistic styles which predates UFC 1 in November of 1993. So, for the overwhelming majority of MMA fighters today, they didn't just learn MMA. They didn't go to the gym one day and decide, "Hey, I'm gonna learn MMA." They learned a style of combat athletics; wrestling, BJJ, boxing, Muay Thai and in turned complimented that style base with other fighting styles to make themselves more effective in the combat ground of MMA.

I really can't be more clear then this. Throw your hands up as if you've won, but your argument is clearly flawed and holds no weight under scrutiny.
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Old 08-29-2010, 02:44 AM   #32
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

another dumb thread on this topic

if tonight did not prove something to you retards i dont know what will, the writing was on the wall when this fight was made same as whenever this shit happens again in either sport

except for in extreme circumstances or years down the line when athletes train both forms of combat from an early age, like sometimes you get athletes who have good crossover in 2 completely different sports, ala michael jordan baseball and basketball and some other examples i couldnt be ****ed finding
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Old 08-29-2010, 02:48 AM   #33
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Originally Posted by Popkins View Post
Fail.


MMA is a sport. Randy Couture is an MMA fighter.

Boxing is a sport. James Toney is a boxer.



Randy Couture and James Toney fought in an MMA fight under MMA rules.

100% advantage Couture.



Should Toney and Couture fight in a boxing match now?

Nope. Because then it would be the opposite, it would be 100% advantage Toney. And fights with 100% advantages are completely pointless, they degrade whichever sport they take place in.



From now on, MMA fighters should fight MMA fighters, boxers should fight boxers, and everyone should stay in their element and have fair, competitive fights, no more freakshow mismatches.
like that..
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Old 08-29-2010, 02:53 AM   #34
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Originally Posted by Popkins View Post
And MMA is also a discipline.

MMA is not a mix of separate disciplines, only people who do not understand MMA think this.

MIXED martial arts is not a mix of...separate disciplines

Keep insulting people with your superior brain.
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Old 08-29-2010, 02:55 AM   #35
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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This is getting a bit stupid, so let me correct all you tards screaming that Randy should have to fight in a boxing match to "make it even".

MMA is an equal ground. You can do anything. You're not limited to singular skill sets. Toney, or any boxer, can use their boxing, but no one has to box with them. Just like Randy, or any wrestler, can use their wrestling, but you don't have to wrestle with them.

Do you see the difference yet?

If they had a wrestling match where Toney was forced to comply with Randy's greatest strength, then yes, your argument holds weight, but they didn't. We know what the result would be either way. If Randy fights James in a boxing match, James wins. If James competes against Randy in a wrestling match, Randy wins.

Now, if they compete in a contest where they can each do their own thing, then it's equal starting ground and Randy won.

Any other questions?
I disagree.. If they both stayed true to their sport Toney would have won.

Randy is a wrestler. In Wrestling you cannot strike an opponent. If it was to see who's decipline was better, Toneys or Randys, toney should be allowed to box and randy only allowed to wrestle, not choke or strike.

The thing is, they fought by MMA rules. Since wrestling doesn't progress past olympic stage, Randy had to become a MMA fighter. While James is a Boxer. They were not on a level playing field or middle ground as you state.
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Old 08-29-2010, 02:59 AM   #36
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

Simple as this JT begged for a fight in the UFC the guy knew he had no training but begged and harrased Dana to put him in right away with a top guy so Dana gave him his wish and JT got what he asked for. Randy Couture isnt chasing down Bob Arum or Richard Schefer begging for any top elite boxers, Couture has never claimed any interest in doing pure boxing matches.
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:02 AM   #37
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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lol esb writers are butt hurt over boxer getting owned. stupid morons.
You are banned.
but i am a mod and i expected this.
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:03 AM   #38
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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I disagree.. If they both stayed true to their sport Toney would have won.

Randy is a wrestler. In Wrestling you cannot strike an opponent. If it was to see who's decipline was better, Toneys or Randys, toney should be allowed to box and randy only allowed to wrestle, not choke or strike.

The thing is, they fought by MMA rules. Since wrestling doesn't progress past olympic stage, Randy had to become a MMA fighter. While James is a Boxer. They were not on a level playing field or middle ground as you state.
Randy could have picked him up and dropped him on his head all night, or just held him down in superior position.

James was allowed to do everything Couture was, just wasn't good enough to.
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:11 AM   #39
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Originally Posted by #1Rounder View Post
I disagree.. If they both stayed true to their sport Toney would have won.

Randy is a wrestler. In Wrestling you cannot strike an opponent. If it was to see who's decipline was better, Toneys or Randys, toney should be allowed to box and randy only allowed to wrestle, not choke or strike.

The thing is, they fought by MMA rules. Since wrestling doesn't progress past olympic stage, Randy had to become a MMA fighter. While James is a Boxer. They were not on a level playing field or middle ground as you state.
This is amazing. I can't possibly be more clear.

Yes, in wrestling you can't strike an opponent. You can, however, submit your opponent. Catch-Wrestling/Submission-Wrestling. And it was Randy's wrestling that effectively neutralized Toney's boxing. So, he would have won even with just his wrestling.

Why this is "even ground" in a metaphorical sense is that they're both free to do anything they like within the accepted realm of combat athletics. It encompasses all their skill sets. Randy's wrestling and Toney's boxing. They're both free to try and do what they do best. However, one finds very quickly that trying to do so while the other is trying to do something else, it becomes very difficult depending on the styles. And that is what they have to adapt to.

The problem with an argument like Poppy's, as you can see from him clearly avoiding it despite my stating it several times, is that MMA itself is just now becoming a style in and of itself. He is using it as a blanket term to encompass all fighters who practice MMA as if they've been doing MMA all along. This is not the case for 99% of all MMA practicioners today. They didn't start out doing MMA. They started with an individual discipline and branch out and learn more disciplines to compliment their original one.

This is an evolvement of, essentially, what happened at UFC 1. It was more of a happy accident, but realistically was bound to happen. Strikers learned that they were completely useless once entering the grappling realm. So, how do they make their striking effective? Well, they have to learn grappling. Wrestlers learn that their form of control is vulnurable to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu positioning and submission holds/chokes. So, what do they do? They learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to compliment their wrestling so they can attack and defend appropriately. Now, what happens to the grappler who think he can attack a striker successfully but finds that the striker knows what he's going to do? Well, he has to develop some striking skills to survive longer in the stand-up so he can apply his techniques with greater effectiveness.

Now once you do this enough times, you have guys getting really good at everything and can attack in every possible manner. This is the inevitable result of the summation of the styles. It's the stripping away of the unessentials.

But the key is they all began with a style. They didn't begin with MMA. They couldn't have. It simply wasn't available to them in it's current form, or even it's more recent forms.

This is the flaw in his argument and he can't get around it. Both Randy and James started out on even ground. Randy went with wrestling. Toney went with boxing. Randy branched out much earlier in his career, relatively speaking, and learned other styles to compliment his already great GR wrestling background. Toney is a great boxer. He started very recently to try and learn other disciplines to make his boxing more effective. He needed to keep it on the feet to make his boxing effective. The moment he started doing this he became a mixed martial artist. He didn't begin as a mixed martial artist, just as Randy didn't. He is a mixed martial artist because he is learning more then one discipline.

It's a subtle difference but it is very profound.
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:13 AM   #40
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Randy could have picked him up and dropped him on his head all night, or just held him down in superior position.

James was allowed to do everything Couture was, just wasn't good enough to.

I completely agree. That could have happened. I've seen a street fight where my boy literally slammed this dude 4 straight times, letting him get up after each time, and the guy finally just stayed down in the fetal position after the last time.!!!

But as to your last statement, that was not was being argued.. TS said Randy could wrestle and Toney could box, but Randy didn't just wrestle, he struck and used submission, which is not allowed in Randy own wrestling background.. The thing is Randy is not a wrestler any more, he is a mixed martial artist, as he's trained in various declines now, and even earned his black belt last night.. And under what rules did they fight? MMA!!! he had all the advantage, it is not a middle ground for both of the fighters main disciplines az the TS suggest.
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:20 AM   #41
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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This is amazing. I can't possibly be more clear.

Yes, in wrestling you can't strike an opponent. You can, however, submit your opponent. Catch-Wrestling/Submission-Wrestling. And it was Randy's wrestling that effectively neutralized Toney's boxing. So, he would have won even with just his wrestling.

Why this is "even ground" in a metaphorical sense is that they're both free to do anything they like within the accepted realm of combat athletics. It encompasses all their skill sets. Randy's wrestling and Toney's boxing. They're both free to try and do what they do best. However, one finds very quickly that trying to do so while the other is trying to do something else, it becomes very difficult depending on the styles. And that is what they have to adapt to.

The problem with an argument like Poppy's, as you can see from him clearly avoiding it despite my stating it several times, is that MMA itself is just now becoming a style in and of itself. He is using it as a blanket term to encompass all fighters who practice MMA as if they've been doing MMA all along. This is not the case for 99% of all MMA practicioners today. They didn't start out doing MMA. They started with an individual discipline and branch out and learn more disciplines to compliment their original one.

This is an evolvement of, essentially, what happened at UFC 1. It was more of a happy accident, but realistically was bound to happen. Strikers learned that they were completely useless once entering the grappling realm. So, how do they make their striking effective? Well, they have to learn grappling. Wrestlers learn that their form of control is vulnurable to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu positioning and submission holds/chokes. So, what do they do? They learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to compliment their wrestling so they can attack and defend appropriately. Now, what happens to the grappler who think he can attack a striker successfully but finds that the striker knows what he's going to do? Well, he has to develop some striking skills to survive longer in the stand-up so he can apply his techniques with greater effectiveness.

Now once you do this enough times, you have guys getting really good at everything and can attack in every possible manner. This is the inevitable result of the summation of the styles. It's the stripping away of the unessentials.

But the key is they all began with a style. They didn't begin with MMA. They couldn't have. It simply wasn't available to them in it's current form, or even it's more recent forms.

This is the flaw in his argument and he can't get around it. Both Randy and James started out on even ground. Randy went with wrestling. Toney went with boxing. Randy branched out much earlier in his career, relatively speaking, and learned other styles to compliment his already great GR wrestling background. Toney is a great boxer. He started very recently to try and learn other disciplines to make his boxing more effective. He needed to keep it on the feet to make his boxing effective. The moment he started doing this he became a mixed martial artist. He didn't begin as a mixed martial artist, just as Randy didn't. He is a mixed martial artist because he is learning more then one discipline.

It's a subtle difference but it is very profound.
Yes you can submit in catch wrestling, but I doubt Randy was a catch wrestler, idk he may have been,.. Chances are he only did folk, freestyle, and GR..

And I wouldn't call toney a mma cuz he was trying to learn to sprawl for 4 months.. I wouldn't feel comfortable calling him a MMArtist.. That's just me though..
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:25 AM   #42
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Jeremy Williams (the heavyweight who got knocked out by Sam Peter) crossed over to MMA and quietly went 5-0 against nobodies a couple years ago. But he actually learned how to fight MMA before trying to fight MMA, even won a fight by submission, and didn't try to fight top guys right out of the gate.


Williams had an extensive background in martial arts, especially judo.
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:27 AM   #43
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Yes you can submit in catch wrestling, but I doubt Randy was a catch wrestler, idk he may have been,.. Chances are he only did folk, freestyle, and GR..

And I wouldn't call toney a mma cuz he was trying to learn to sprawl for 4 months..
He did primarily Greco-Roman wrestling, but I'm certain that he learned some catch wrestling and submission wrestling techniques. Nearly all wrestlers do and all elite ones certainly do.

And of course Toney is a Mixed Martial Artist. He's a novice one, but still one, as I've stated. I strongly suggest reading what you quoted again. It really is the key difference and is why he can't argue against it.

You learn one style of fighting, you're that. You're a wrestler. You're a boxer. You're a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fighter. You're a Muay Thai fighter. However, once you start to learn something other then your original discipline, you cease to be just a *insert original discipline*. You're mixing the styles (if you're attempting MMA or even just learning two things individually...you'll inevitably mix them up and find out for yourself what works best) into something completely different and that is what we called a Mixed Martial Artist. Toney is a Mixed Martial Artist with a base in boxing. Randy is a Mixed Martial Artist (considerably more experienced then Toney) with a base in wrestling. There are very, very few people competing in MMA today who are just Mixed Martial Artists.

It really can't possibly be made any clearer then this.
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:27 AM   #44
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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You are banned.
but i am a mod and i expected this.
Are you really banning someone for that? jeez....
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:55 AM   #45
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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This is getting a bit stupid, so let me correct all you tards screaming that Randy should have to fight in a boxing match to "make it even".

MMA is an equal ground. You can do anything. You're not limited to singular skill sets. Toney, or any boxer, can use their boxing, but no one has to box with them. Just like Randy, or any wrestler, can use their wrestling, but you don't have to wrestle with them.

Do you see the difference yet?

If they had a wrestling match where Toney was forced to comply with Randy's greatest strength, then yes, your argument holds weight, but they didn't. We know what the result would be either way. If Randy fights James in a boxing match, James wins. If James competes against Randy in a wrestling match, Randy wins.

Now, if they compete in a contest where they can each do their own thing, then it's equal starting ground and Randy won.

Any other questions?
wait, is randy couture just a wrestler?

where did he learn that arm triangle from greco roman wresting?

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that randy couture is a MMA fighter and has been fighting under mma rules since 1997.

"Equal ground" huh?

everyone who heard of this fight with any mma knowledge knew that toney would lose. I knew it, and I bet the TS knew it. If your surprised by the outcome you probably dont know much about mma.

I havent seen the fight yet but wouldn't be surprised if toney didnt even know how to stop the takedown and while on his back probably was completely helpless.

that suggests that toney was not prepared for coutures wrestling which of course was his own fault.
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