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Old 08-29-2010, 04:02 AM   #46
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Originally Posted by yaca you View Post
wait, is randy couture just a wrestler?

where did he learn that arm triangle from greco roman wresting?

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that randy couture is a MMA fighter and has been fighting under mma rules since 1997.

"Equal ground" huh?

everyone who heard of this fight with any mma knowledge knew that toney would lose. I knew it, and I bet the TS knew it. If your surprised by the outcome you probably dont know much about mma.

I havent seen the fight yet but wouldn't be surprised if toney didnt even know how to stop the takedown and while on his back probably was completely helpless.

that suggests that toney was not prepared for coutures wrestling which of course was his own fault.


That is what I was sort of trying to say.. I can't believe TS is calling Toney a MMartist because he tried to learn at most 3 moves of wrestling, sprawling, maybe some under hooks, and mabe a sweep.. And he didn't even learn how to do it.. Now he is a certified MMartist?? Attending to learn a few moves, as, opposed to studying different deciplines as a whole is totally different
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:03 AM   #47
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Originally Posted by yaca you View Post
wait, is randy couture just a wrestler?

where did he learn that arm triangle from greco roman wresting?

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that randy couture is a MMA fighter and has been fighting under mma rules since 1997.

"Equal ground" huh?

everyone who heard of this fight with any mma knowledge knew that toney would lose. I knew it, and I bet the TS knew it. If your surprised by the outcome you probably dont know much about mma.

I havent seen the fight yet but wouldn't be surprised if toney didnt even know how to stop the takedown and while on his back probably was completely helpless.

that suggests that toney was not prepared for coutures wrestling which of course was his own fault.
I'll respond to this with replies already given in this thread. If read by themselves, it should be enough. If read in the context of this thread in all it's replies, my position will be very clear.

In response to my OP I received this reply, on that same context of "equal ground" with various implications in other areas:

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1Rounder View Post
I disagree.. If they both stayed true to their sport Toney would have won.

Randy is a wrestler. In Wrestling you cannot strike an opponent. If it was to see who's decipline was better, Toneys or Randys, toney should be allowed to box and randy only allowed to wrestle, not choke or strike.

The thing is, they fought by MMA rules. Since wrestling doesn't progress past olympic stage, Randy had to become a MMA fighter. While James is a Boxer. They were not on a level playing field or middle ground as you state.
It went on as follows:

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Originally Posted by James23 View Post
This is amazing. I can't possibly be more clear.

Yes, in wrestling you can't strike an opponent. You can, however, submit your opponent. Catch-Wrestling/Submission-Wrestling. And it was Randy's wrestling that effectively neutralized Toney's boxing. So, he would have won even with just his wrestling.

Why this is "even ground" in a metaphorical sense is that they're both free to do anything they like within the accepted realm of combat athletics. It encompasses all their skill sets. Randy's wrestling and Toney's boxing. They're both free to try and do what they do best. However, one finds very quickly that trying to do so while the other is trying to do something else, it becomes very difficult depending on the styles. And that is what they have to adapt to.

The problem with an argument like Poppy's, as you can see from him clearly avoiding it despite my stating it several times, is that MMA itself is just now becoming a style in and of itself. He is using it as a blanket term to encompass all fighters who practice MMA as if they've been doing MMA all along. This is not the case for 99% of all MMA practicioners today. They didn't start out doing MMA. They started with an individual discipline and branch out and learn more disciplines to compliment their original one.

This is an evolvement of, essentially, what happened at UFC 1. It was more of a happy accident, but realistically was bound to happen. Strikers learned that they were completely useless once entering the grappling realm. So, how do they make their striking effective? Well, they have to learn grappling. Wrestlers learn that their form of control is vulnurable to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu positioning and submission holds/chokes. So, what do they do? They learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to compliment their wrestling so they can attack and defend appropriately. Now, what happens to the grappler who think he can attack a striker successfully but finds that the striker knows what he's going to do? Well, he has to develop some striking skills to survive longer in the stand-up so he can apply his techniques with greater effectiveness.

Now once you do this enough times, you have guys getting really good at everything and can attack in every possible manner. This is the inevitable result of the summation of the styles. It's the stripping away of the unessentials.

But the key is they all began with a style. They didn't begin with MMA. They couldn't have. It simply wasn't available to them in it's current form, or even it's more recent forms.

This is the flaw in his argument and he can't get around it. Both Randy and James started out on even ground. Randy went with wrestling. Toney went with boxing. Randy branched out much earlier in his career, relatively speaking, and learned other styles to compliment his already great GR wrestling background. Toney is a great boxer. He started very recently to try and learn other disciplines to make his boxing more effective. He needed to keep it on the feet to make his boxing effective. The moment he started doing this he became a mixed martial artist. He didn't begin as a mixed martial artist, just as Randy didn't. He is a mixed martial artist because he is learning more then one discipline.

It's a subtle difference but it is very profound.

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Originally Posted by #1Rounder View Post
Yes you can submit in catch wrestling, but I doubt Randy was a catch wrestler, idk he may have been,.. Chances are he only did folk, freestyle, and GR..

And I wouldn't call toney a mma cuz he was trying to learn to sprawl for 4 months.. I wouldn't feel comfortable calling him a MMArtist.. That's just me though..
Quote:
Originally Posted by James23 View Post
He did primarily Greco-Roman wrestling, but I'm certain that he learned some catch wrestling and submission wrestling techniques. Nearly all wrestlers do and all elite ones certainly do.

And of course Toney is a Mixed Martial Artist. He's a novice one, but still one, as I've stated. I strongly suggest reading what you quoted again. It really is the key difference and is why he can't argue against it.

You learn one style of fighting, you're that. You're a wrestler. You're a boxer. You're a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fighter. You're a Muay Thai fighter. However, once you start to learn something other then your original discipline, you cease to be just a *insert original discipline*. You're mixing the styles (if you're attempting MMA or even just learning two things individually...you'll inevitably mix them up and find out for yourself what works best) into something completely different and that is what we called a Mixed Martial Artist. Toney is a Mixed Martial Artist with a base in boxing. Randy is a Mixed Martial Artist (considerably more experienced then Toney) with a base in wrestling. There are very, very few people competing in MMA today who are just Mixed Martial Artists.

It really can't possibly be made any clearer then this.
Hopefully that clears up any potential confusion.

Last edited by James23; 08-29-2010 at 04:19 AM. Reason: Correct Quotation Included.
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:07 AM   #48
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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That is what I was sort of trying to say.. I can't believe TS is calling Toney a MMartist because he tried to learn at most 3 moves of wrestling, sprawling, maybe some under hooks, and mabe a sweep.. Now he is a certified MMartist??
Incredible. I spelled it out for you, plain as day, and you're still not getting it.

Toney is a novice Mixed Martial Artist. Novice is simply a qualifier. He's still a mixed martial artist.

Couture is an expert Mixed Martial Artist.

They're both mixed martial artists, just different levels. How they approached it varies but invariably there are many different ways to become a mixed martial artist.

(Without losing sight that they're not purely Mixed Martial Artists, as I clarified earlier)

How they came to be these things is important and I clearly delineate these in our previous posts.
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:13 AM   #49
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

It is pretty simple the fight shouldn't have been allowed to happen. it is as simple as that. if it was other way round, there is no way a commission would allow a total novice boxer fight a fighter like toney. it is the commission in boston at fault here, UFC fan got **** over tonight
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:15 AM   #50
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Incredible. I spelled it out for you, plain as day, and you're still not getting it.

Toney is a novice Mixed Martial Artist. Novice is simply a qualifier. He's still a mixed martial artist.

Couture is an expert Mixed Martial Artist.

They're both mixed martial artists, just different levels. How they approached it varies but invariably there are many different ways to become a mixed martial artist.

(Without losing sight that they're not purely Mixed Martial Artists, as I clarified earlier)

How they came to be these things is important and I clearly delineate these in our previous posts.

Man, I'm not confused as to what you are saying.. I just don't agree with you..

You say they are both MMartist and I don't believe I would call toney one because he tried to learn a few wrestling moves..

So please stop with all this " I can't believe this" and "I can't make it any clearer" stuff..

I get you, I just don't agree with you. I've considered your point of view, have you considered mine?
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:22 AM   #51
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Originally Posted by #1Rounder View Post
Man, I'm not confused as to what you are saying.. I just don't agree with you..

You say they are both MMartist and I don't believe I would call toney one because he tried to learn a few wrestling moves..

So please stop with all this " I can't believe this" and "I can't make it any clearer" stuff..

I get you, I just don't agree with you. I've considered your point of view, have you considered mine?
Of course I have. It's simply incorrect.

If someone signs up to do boxing, and does it for a lesson or two, or however long or short you want, the moment they learn a boxnig technique, they're a boxer. They're a beginner. Just like the guys that fight in the local golden gloves are boxers, just like Floyd Mayweather is a boxer, they're simply on different levels.

Same thing applies here. What makes a mixed martial artist? Attempting to apply multiple (more then one) styles into one effective style. Toney attempted to do this by learning techniques other then boxing techniques to suppliment and make effective his boxing. Therefore, by definition, he is a mixed martial artist. You simply add in the qualifier to denote his level, which is a novice.

Edit - For matters of clarity, I should be even more specific.

If your average man/woman goes to learn boxing as self defense, in definition that doesn't make them a boxer, I'd concede. It makes them someone trained in boxing.

If you decide to put your boxing training to use in a combative athletics contest, then you're a boxer, no matter your level. You could be the worst boxer in the history of boxing, you're still a boxer (just a horrid one).

Toney attempted to learn the complexities of MMA to augment his boxing skills in an attempt to apply them in the MMA realm. Thus, he is a Mixed Martial Artist, regardless of his level of overall skill.

Last edited by James23; 08-29-2010 at 04:38 AM. Reason: Further Qualification and Edification.
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:27 AM   #52
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

I delivered a letter once but I am not a Postman.
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:29 AM   #53
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Originally Posted by Hussss View Post
lol esb writers are butt hurt over boxer getting owned. stupid morons.

I have to admit I kind of agree with this statment.

Some people feel they need to defend boxing now.

they dont.

toney should have not entered MMA, but thats whats cool now when you cant cut it in the boxing ring.

Then again perhaps toney can return to boxing and have success. Wonder if his ufc contract will allow it. Im not really interested in seeing him get beat up in mma in further matches.
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:30 AM   #54
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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I delivered a letter once but I am not a Postman.
And I solved a math problem. Doesn't make me a math professor.

Qualifiers, limiting to the realm of combative athletics. It's all relative.
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:34 AM   #55
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Of course I have. It's simply incorrect.

If someone signs up to do boxing, and does it for a lesson or two, or however long or short you want, the moment they learn a boxnig technique, they're a boxer. They're a beginner. Just like the guys that fight in the local golden gloves are boxers, just like Floyd Mayweather is a boxer, they're simply on different levels.

Same thing applies here. What makes a mixed martial artist? Attempting to apply multiple (more then one) styles into one effective style. Toney attempted to do this by learning techniques other then boxing techniques to suppliment and make effective his boxing. Therefore, by definition, he is a mixed martial artist. You simply add in the qualifier to denote his level, which is a novice.

Ok man.. I guess I'm wrong.. Thanks for looking at it from my side as well..
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:41 AM   #56
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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Ok man.. I guess I'm wrong.. Thanks for looking at it from my side as well..
No shame in being wrong most of the time (this not being one of those times). I'm wrong all the time in areas where I'm completely oblivious, and I'm happy to admit that I am. Here is simply an area (martial arts) that I've been involved in my entire life (essentially), and have thought a great deal about.

Now if we were to talk about just boxing then for sure you'd be correcting me left and right. I'm not a boxing expert. Novice at best.
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:44 AM   #57
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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I'll respond to this with replies already given in this thread. If read by themselves, it should be enough. If read in the context of this thread in all it's replies, my position will be very clear.

In response to my OP I received this reply, on that same context of "equal ground" with various implications in other areas:



It went on as follows:








Hopefully that clears up any potential confusion.
Mother****a I aint confused!

maybe you confused suckka!

anyway, it would have been easier to respond to me directly.

I thought I would avoid these threads for a while after this fight because of the intense stupidity that I was certain would threaten to dominate the forums.

we will see how intolerable it becomes, actually it might be fun.
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Old 08-29-2010, 04:59 AM   #58
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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No shame in being wrong most of the time (this not being one of those times). I'm wrong all the time in areas where I'm completely oblivious, and I'm happy to admit that I am. Here is simply an area (martial arts) that I've been involved in my entire life (essentially), and have thought a great deal about.

Now if we were to talk about just boxing then for sure you'd be correcting me left and right. I'm not a boxing expert. Novice at best.


I actually follow both Boxing and Mma, as I took Tae Kwon Do from age 8 to 13. Then I started wrestling in middle school all the way through high school.. Even with me knowing both of these, I don't consider myself a MMArtist.. Of course I haven't competed in about 10 years..

You are just going strictly by definition and I am going by actual in depth training of a discipline as a whole..

Never the less, nice debate..
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Old 08-29-2010, 05:11 AM   #59
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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I actually follow both Boxing and Mma, as I took Tae Kwon Do from age 8 to 13. Then I started wrestling in middle school all the way through high school.. Even with me knowing both of these, I don't consider myself a MMArtist.. Of course I haven't competed in about 10 years..

You are just going strictly by definition and I am going by actual in depth training of a discipline as a whole..

Never the less, nice debate..
I'll also watch a good boxing match, but seems they've been few and far between recently.

I also started in TKD when I was 4, got my black belt when I was 13 and started boxing, muay thai and BJJ when I was 18. Muay Thai first, then BJJ and rounding it out with boxing. I now wish I did wrestling because damn it's effective when combined with other styles.

And even by loose standards, you're a mixed martial artist. You've studied multiple martial arts, you can combine them or keep them separate and use them each individually should the need arise, so you're a mixed martial artist. Easy, really.

Ever train any BJJ? If not, I'd highly recommend it. I wish to all hell we had it where I live when I was a kid. Way more effective the TKD in every sense of the word. TKD is largely useless by itself, I've found. My Muay Thai instructor beat the **** outta me when we sparred. I was simply never used to his kinds of techniques and the sheer effectiveness of his skill set under duress, which TKD doesn't teach you to cope with.

And yeah, interesting. You didn't come at me with anything malicious, but I suppose I was in kind of a "defensive" kind of position because of the way in which this thread was approached and because of the initial reply of Poppy with the heading "FAIL". So, I replied in kind. I should have been a bit more sincere to yourself, so my apologies. I try and keep it on level with whom I'm talking to, and you seem to be level-headed. So, thank you, sir.
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Old 08-29-2010, 05:14 AM   #60
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

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This is getting a bit stupid, so let me correct all you tards screaming that Randy should have to fight in a boxing match to "make it even".

MMA is an equal ground. You can do anything. You're not limited to singular skill sets. Toney, or any boxer, can use their boxing, but no one has to box with them. Just like Randy, or any wrestler, can use their wrestling, but you don't have to wrestle with them.

Do you see the difference yet?

If they had a wrestling match where Toney was forced to comply with Randy's greatest strength, then yes, your argument holds weight, but they didn't. We know what the result would be either way. If Randy fights James in a boxing match, James wins. If James competes against Randy in a wrestling match, Randy wins.

Now, if they compete in a contest where they can each do their own thing, then it's equal starting ground and Randy won.

Any other questions?
Any other questions ???

yeah ****face itz "NOT" even CLOSE to EQUAL starting ground you DIPSHYTE

you think you can just ADD that in at the VERY END of your argument and NODBOY will NOTICE it ?

ok NEWz FLASH pinhead, randy fought his career in MMA and toney didnt

SEE THE DIFFERENCE YET ??

now you and your thread have something in common with james tonite

this could be one of the funniest timez ever a jackass climbed into a thread with bucketz of confidence thinking he was in control of everything only to find out within his own thread he began getting mentally raped

Any Other Questions ?
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