Why is Greb rated so high?

DaveTheWave · 11-15-2007, 06:10 PM

I am asking because either there is something I'm missing or everyone is nuts. I know he had a ton of fights and that he did well against Dempsey in sparring and whipped Tunney twice.
I have seen enough footage of him fighting and saw "sparring" footage as well, and to me he is so sloppy, his balance is embarassing, his punches are all wrong, and I could go on.
There is a reason he won that many fights, but to me ANY respectable middleweight (or anyone around that weight) would have had a field day with his primitive skills.

Please fill me in... Am I taking crazy pills?

--side note: I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, this is me asking people who know more than me to fill me in... So no replies involving insults or unfounded statements that aren't backed up with facts.

joe33 · 11-15-2007, 06:38 PM

Man how does the first guy thinks he beat so many great men?,you dont do by being lucky every time,he nearly killed tunney in one of there fightrs,he could not get out of bed for a week after,he was a all time great,its just sad we aint got any decent footage,and yeah i agree that training footage was of him dicking about.

DaveTheWave · 11-15-2007, 06:45 PM

I must correct myself on seeing him fight- I was wasn't thinking right- But yes, the footage of him "sparring" didn't appear to be slowed by the camera... I just can't see how he is rated so high head to head having never seen him in action.

brooklyn1550 · 11-15-2007, 07:25 PM

Look at his resume - he beat 10 hall of famers and a lot of very good ones.

joe33 · 11-15-2007, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveTheWave

I must correct myself on seeing him fight- I was wasn't thinking right- But yes, the footage of him "sparring" didn't appear to be slowed by the camera... I just can't see how he is rated so high head to head having never seen him in action.

But look at the list of the men he took and beat?,they were not all lucky wins mate,so your head should tell you he was something special,every time ive read experts on him,they always say the same thing,all the guys he beat as well,i agree though that the lack of footage is so damn annoying,but the lists dont lie,he was a one in a million.

Seamus · 11-15-2007, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveTheWave

I have seen enough footage of him fighting .

No you have not.

rekcutnevets · 11-15-2007, 09:21 PM

I have often questioned part of what you are. His head to head ranking.

His resume is great, but there is not enough of him on film to judge how he does head to head. You can look at his record, and see he dealt with Tunney. You just can't see how he dealt with Tunney. So you can't get an accurate account of how he'd do against a boxer. You just know that he was able to deal with that boxer, not every boxer. You don't see how he dealt with movement, or jabs, or how he dealt with infighting. This limits how you can judge him head to head.

janitor · 11-16-2007, 03:45 AM

It is like this.

We dont have any meaningfull footage of him but we do have footage of many of the best men he beat.

We have footage of Gene Tunney, tommy Loughran, the Gibbons brothers, Mickey Walker, Jimmy Slatterey etc etc.

So while we cant quantify him exactly we do know what he was being so efective against.

ChrisPontius · 11-16-2007, 07:21 AM

If the only Ali footage we had was of him laying on the ropes against an average sparring partner, taking body shots and making clown faces, would you say ANY respectable heavyweight would have his way with Ali's primitive skills?

Greb's resume is incredible. He did so much in the heavier weights as well. Whenever you're examining records of Dempsey's opponents, you'll see that time and time again, they had some good wins, but an L in the row that has their fight against Greb. Really impressive. He once (arguably twice) beat the guy who totally dominated Dempsey twice, despite being a mere super middleweight.

True Writer · 11-16-2007, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveTheWave

I am asking because either there is something I'm missing or everyone is nuts. I know he had a ton of fights and that he did well against Dempsey in sparring and whipped Tunney twice.
I have seen enough footage of him fighting and saw "sparring" footage as well, and to me he is so sloppy, his balance is embarassing, his punches are all wrong, and I could go on.
There is a reason he won that many fights, but to me ANY respectable middleweight (or anyone around that weight) would have had a field day with his primitive skills.

Please fill me in... Am I taking crazy pills?

--side note: I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, this is me asking people who know more than me to fill me in... So no replies involving insults or unfounded statements that aren't backed up with facts.

I am with you on this one. How you can rate a fighter so highly with out footage is crazy, and the footage of him is a total joke. Which his footage then watch Roy Jones no comparison.

My dinner with Conteh · 11-16-2007, 09:02 AM

So should Greb not be rated at all because there's no footage despite an excellent CV?

True Writer · 11-16-2007, 09:19 AM

I think you could ague that point. You can only compare Greb against his generation, baring in mind that small guys fought big guys all the time and black fighters like Flowers dominated Greb dispite being smaller.

Bummy Davis · 11-16-2007, 09:49 AM

From the film I have seen of some of Grebs opponents Tunney,Walker and his wins over Maxie Rosen bloom, Johnny Wilson,Jimmy Delaney,Tommy Loughran,Jimmy Slattery,Tiger Flowers,Lou Bogash, Mike Gibbons 86-4, Tommy Gibbons 75-1-2 and 49-2, Kid Norfolk, Gunboat Smith KO1, Battling Levinsky, Bill Brennan,Willie Meehan,Billy Miske,George Chip,Mike ODowd,Zulu Kid,Augie Ratner, Jack Blackburn,Jack Dillon,166-17,Al McCoy, Soldier Bartfield....and many others..I my opinion Greb would win 2-out of 3 with any of the ATG middleweights and 3-out of 3 with most and he would beat most of the light heavys also, also speaking with some of the old time authoritys of boxing from the old ring magazine and old time fighters...Greb was amazing

rekcutnevets · 11-16-2007, 10:25 PM

People are not saying Greb should not be rated at all. His resume is great. You can easily argue his worth on the all time scale.

What people question is people's willingness to rate him so high head to head. There is too little footage of him to understand how he dealt with different styles. You can read about it all you want, but without seeing it there is no way of knowing.

When you read about Ali vs. Foreman, it reads different than when viewed. People write like Ali stood still, and just let George swing away. Then, after a savage one sided beating, he knocked the exhausted Foreman out. When you watch the fight, it is different. Ali did let George punch himself out, but he was fighting back the whole time as well. He countered George, often beat George to the punch, and fought with him as well.

11-15-2007, 06:10 PM	#1
DaveTheWave Man Extraordinaire ESB Jr Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Phoenix Posts: 218 vCash: 1000	Why is Greb rated so high? I am asking because either there is something I'm missing or everyone is nuts. I know he had a ton of fights and that he did well against Dempsey in sparring and whipped Tunney twice. I have seen enough footage of him fighting and saw "sparring" footage as well, and to me he is so sloppy, his balance is embarassing, his punches are all wrong, and I could go on. There is a reason he won that many fights, but to me ANY respectable middleweight (or anyone around that weight) would have had a field day with his primitive skills. Please fill me in... Am I taking crazy pills? --side note: I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, this is me asking people who know more than me to fill me in... So no replies involving insults or unfounded statements that aren't backed up with facts.
Top

11-15-2007, 06:38 PM	#2
joe33 newbie Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 0 vCash: 1615	Re: Why is Greb rated so high? Man how does the first guy thinks he beat so many great men?,you dont do by being lucky every time,he nearly killed tunney in one of there fightrs,he could not get out of bed for a week after,he was a all time great,its just sad we aint got any decent footage,and yeah i agree that training footage was of him dicking about.
Top

11-15-2007, 06:45 PM	#3
DaveTheWave Man Extraordinaire ESB Jr Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Phoenix Posts: 218 vCash: 1000	Re: Why is Greb rated so high? I must correct myself on seeing him fight- I was wasn't thinking right- But yes, the footage of him "sparring" didn't appear to be slowed by the camera... I just can't see how he is rated so high head to head having never seen him in action.
Top

11-15-2007, 07:25 PM	#4
brooklyn1550 Roberto Duran East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 12,024 vCash: 1000	Re: Why is Greb rated so high? Look at his resume - he beat 10 hall of famers and a lot of very good ones.
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11-15-2007, 09:21 PM	#7
rekcutnevets Black Sash East Side Guru Join Date: May 2007 Location: InYourMouth, NC Posts: 6,523 vCash: 1000	Re: Why is Greb rated so high? I have often questioned part of what you are. His head to head ranking. His resume is great, but there is not enough of him on film to judge how he does head to head. You can look at his record, and see he dealt with Tunney. You just can't see how he dealt with Tunney. So you can't get an accurate account of how he'd do against a boxer. You just know that he was able to deal with that boxer, not every boxer. You don't see how he dealt with movement, or jabs, or how he dealt with infighting. This limits how you can judge him head to head.
Top

11-16-2007, 03:45 AM	#8
janitor P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 19,157 vCash: 1000	Re: Why is Greb rated so high? It is like this. We dont have any meaningfull footage of him but we do have footage of many of the best men he beat. We have footage of Gene Tunney, tommy Loughran, the Gibbons brothers, Mickey Walker, Jimmy Slatterey etc etc. So while we cant quantify him exactly we do know what he was being so efective against.
Top

11-16-2007, 07:21 AM	#9
ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 East Side Guru Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Holland Posts: 9,633 vCash: 238	Re: Why is Greb rated so high? If the only Ali footage we had was of him laying on the ropes against an average sparring partner, taking body shots and making clown faces, would you say ANY respectable heavyweight would have his way with Ali's primitive skills? Greb's resume is incredible. He did so much in the heavier weights as well. Whenever you're examining records of Dempsey's opponents, you'll see that time and time again, they had some good wins, but an L in the row that has their fight against Greb. Really impressive. He once (arguably twice) beat the guy who totally dominated Dempsey twice, despite being a mere super middleweight.
Top

11-16-2007, 09:02 AM	#11
My dinner with Conteh Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,828 vCash: 1000	Re: Why is Greb rated so high? So should Greb not be rated at all because there's no footage despite an excellent CV?
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11-16-2007, 09:19 AM	#12
True Writer Gatekeeper ESB Full Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 320 vCash: 1000	Re: Why is Greb rated so high? I think you could ague that point. You can only compare Greb against his generation, baring in mind that small guys fought big guys all the time and black fighters like Flowers dominated Greb dispite being smaller.
Top

11-16-2007, 09:49 AM	#13
Bummy Davis Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: New York Posts: 8,239 vCash: 1000	Re: Why is Greb rated so high? From the film I have seen of some of Grebs opponents Tunney,Walker and his wins over Maxie Rosen bloom, Johnny Wilson,Jimmy Delaney,Tommy Loughran,Jimmy Slattery,Tiger Flowers,Lou Bogash, Mike Gibbons 86-4, Tommy Gibbons 75-1-2 and 49-2, Kid Norfolk, Gunboat Smith KO1, Battling Levinsky, Bill Brennan,Willie Meehan,Billy Miske,George Chip,Mike ODowd,Zulu Kid,Augie Ratner, Jack Blackburn,Jack Dillon,166-17,Al McCoy, Soldier Bartfield....and many others..I my opinion Greb would win 2-out of 3 with any of the ATG middleweights and 3-out of 3 with most and he would beat most of the light heavys also, also speaking with some of the old time authoritys of boxing from the old ring magazine and old time fighters...Greb was amazing
Top

11-16-2007, 10:25 PM	#14
rekcutnevets Black Sash East Side Guru Join Date: May 2007 Location: InYourMouth, NC Posts: 6,523 vCash: 1000	Re: Why is Greb rated so high? People are not saying Greb should not be rated at all. His resume is great. You can easily argue his worth on the all time scale. What people question is people's willingness to rate him so high head to head. There is too little footage of him to understand how he dealt with different styles. You can read about it all you want, but without seeing it there is no way of knowing. When you read about Ali vs. Foreman, it reads different than when viewed. People write like Ali stood still, and just let George swing away. Then, after a savage one sided beating, he knocked the exhausted Foreman out. When you watch the fight, it is different. Ali did let George punch himself out, but he was fighting back the whole time as well. He countered George, often beat George to the punch, and fought with him as well.
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