*Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

[youngmonzon]

Originally Posted by Wae Petes

This post is a failure.

Robinson lost to Basilio, Fullmer, Turpin, Pender, LaMotta.

Monzon would have never lost to any of them!!

Robinson is revered because he is a black american by liberal, dumb americans.

Monzon would have owned him, Hagler, Hopkins (wait until Calzaghe ends his ridiculous claims about being great), etc. and any other middleweight in history.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by Wae Petes

That's bullshit if you don't mind my jumping in.

Nope. I'm confident that Valdez was a better middleweight than anyone Hagler ever fought.

[zippy]

Maybe someone said this already, but maybe Monzon isn't as known or popular in the states because he had a more european way of fighting. If the KO came it came, but he was just out to win while exposing himself just as much as he had to. Americans don't like that, so maybe that's it. They want a killer. That attitude has spread now to other countries too, it's not just America, but the line used to be there more.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by Wae Petes

In terms of resume, that's possible, but in head to head terms I don't think so. I don't think he was a better fighter than leonard or Hearns. Head to head though, he may beat Hearns, but I may take Leonard.

Hagler also beat Briscoe.

The very fact you mention Briscoe proves to me you don't know a whole lot about the era/s.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by Wae Petes

I was throwing him out as an afterthought to deepen Hagler's resume, as I know very thoroughly that Valdez beat Briscoe.

My first paragraph still stands.

Briscoe was a genuinely dangerous opponent when Monzon & Valdez beat him. Against Hagler, he was finished.

And no, your first paragraph doesn't still stand. Hearns never proved his mettle & prowess as a middleweight, or at least not to the level Valdez did. Neither did Leonard.

[brownpimp88]

If monzon beat a light heavyweight like conteh for example, yes his p4p ranking would have increased. I still rank him above a guy like archie moore. I mean the greatest fighter moore beat was harold johnson, every other atg beat moore, if this gets held against guys like de la hoya, it has to be held against moore too.

[Dempsey1238]

Originally Posted by youngmonzon

Robinson lost to Basilio, Fullmer, Turpin, Pender, LaMotta.

Monzon would have never lost to any of them!!

Robinson is revered because he is a black american by liberal, dumb americans.

Monzon would have owned him, Hagler, Hopkins (wait until Calzaghe ends his ridiculous claims about being great), etc. and any other middleweight in history.

I give Basilio, Fullmer, and perhaps Pendler(Highly underated) some great shots in beating Monzon. I think if the ref lets it all goes, Fullmer has the best shot.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by Wae Petes

I know they didn't accomplish what he did. I never said they did. This all started because I was saying I disagree with Valdez being able to beat all of Hagler's opposition.

I didn't mention accomplishments. I said Hearns & Leonard never proved their abilities fully as middleweights - meaning their head-to-head standings suffer.

[brownpimp88]

Originally Posted by Manassa

I didn't mention accomplishments. I said Hearns & Leonard never proved their abilities fully as middleweights - meaning their head-to-head standings suffer.

Hearns has a decent middleweight resume, outside of bennie briscoe who else did valdez beat?

[Dempsey1238]

Well Pendler also beat Carman, in a great fight though. Pretty action pack.
Robinson was still pretty good, it would not be long after loseing to Pendler, he would hold the great Gene Fullmer up to a draw. So it was not like Robinson was a corpse.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by brownpimp88

Hearns has a decent middleweight resume, outside of bennie briscoe who else did valdez beat?

Several contenders. And he went tooth and nail with a dominant champion who happened to be more capable than an '87 Hagler. He looked better than Hearns, too - perhaps not as obviously speedy and skilled, but you didn't worry about him running out of stamina or getting caught with a big shot either.

Originally Posted by Wae Petes

I'd say Leonard proved it. I also did say that Valdez may well beat Hearns in a matchup, but that doesn't mean Hearns wasn't on his level, just means he would be a bad style matchup.

One may construct a decent argument in favour of Leonard beating Valdez, since he wasn't that good with boxers (even when inspired [i.e., not in the Corro fights]), however, Valdez would beat more middleweights than Leonard would. Leonard only just scraped past a badly faded Hagler, he wasn't that good.

[red cobra]

Nobody is saying that anyone other Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest p4p, in considering all he was capable of doing as a fighter, but if they ever met, Carlos Monzon would have beaten him over 15 rounds for a decision. Monzon was the better middleweight champion. Robinson's style would have been solved by Carlos. As for the qualities of Hagler's title opponents as opposed to Monzon's, well who did Marvin fight that can be compared to Benvenuti, Napoles, Briscoe and Valdez? Emile was a better fighter all around than Thomas Hearns, Napoles was on top of his world class game in 1974, and was a more formidable challenge than was Roberto Duran when he fought Hagler, and how can any of Hagler's challengers compare to Bennie Briscoe and last but not least, Rodrigo Valdez? People who were not around in the seventies, who took up interest in boxing in the eighties or nineties seem to forget, like the boxing media forgets, how great those fighters were back in the seventies. All you read about is "Leonard/Hearns/Duran, Leonard/Hearns/Duran, Leonard/Hearns/Duran"....by these myopic boxing writers and commentators who were probably either not around in the 70's, or are senile and don't remember. Briscoe was still a monster back in '72, and would have been crowned champion that night had he fought just about anyone else. Rodrigo Valdez was even better, and crushed Briscoe in '74. Valdez had speed, power and a clever, catlike defense/offence almost like a middleweight version of 122 lb. era Wilfredo Gomez. Monzon beat them all, and proved he was the best, even with, after 1973, with a bullet lodged in his shoulder. Marvin Hagler was a legitemitely great fighter and champion, but he would have lost a 15 round decision, and one that was not disputed like his 12 round "loss" to Leonard to the "Phenom" Carlos Monzon.