Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG - Page 2

Nicky P · 09-20-2010, 10:39 AM

I agree, he's an excellent fighter and a warrior. But not quite all time great.

PowerPuncher · 09-20-2010, 10:44 AM

He's an ATG, avoided for years, his fans argue hes unbeaten in 17years from 126lb-135lbs (although Norwood certainly beat him imo), 3 weight champion fighting the best in each division, fighting tough contenders aswell as established champions. Now he's 37 and still lineal champion in his 3rd weight class

Lets not forget only 2 years ago half of the fans rated him above Pacquaio

Pachilles · 09-20-2010, 10:45 AM

This talk of the word great being used too loosely is really silly. You can put a limit on the word "greatest" but i dont think you can on "great".

PowerPuncher · 09-20-2010, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Addie

Barrera and Casamayor ceased to be great by the time Marquez fought them.

I'm underwhelmed by his win column, really. I think he has work to do.

Marquez was the same age as MAB and Casa and past his prime himself. MAB was lineal SFW champ when JMM beat him, Casa was LW lineal champ when JMM KO'd him. Diaz was a top3 LW when JMM ko'd him. Now he's fighting a young bull in Katsidis, he'll beat him too despite being 37

Addie · 09-20-2010, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Marquez was the same age as MAB and Casa and past his prime himself.

I knew someone would have to drag this out...everybody with a pulse and who has been watching the current scene knows that Marquez had a lot more left than Casa and Barrera did at that point. No real debate to be had. Marquez was naturally bigger than Marco, and carried the weight better too. First time I saw Marco look soft in the body when he fought Marquez. Not a terribly great win. Casamayor went life and death with one dimensional Katsidis and should have lost to Cruz. Good win, not a great one.

I really didn't need to type that out....

Quote:

MAB was lineal SFW champ when JMM beat him

Struggling with the likes of Rocky Juarez.

Quote:

Casa was LW lineal champ when JMM KO'd him.

Struggling with Katsidis, losing to Cruz.

Quote:

Diaz was a top3 LW when JMM ko'd him.

Lost to Campbell, but a good win nonetheless. "Good" being the operative word.

As I say, not really going to get in a big back and forth with you about this Power Puncher. You can tell me how old Barrera was as if I didn't already know and that he was champion at the time of the Marquez fight. You quote numbers and recite what can be read off Boxrec, and I'll go by what I know having watched the fights themselves. They were good wins, not great wins.

PowerPuncher · 09-20-2010, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Addie

I knew someone would have to drag this out...everybody with a pulse and who has been watching the current scene knows that Marquez had a lot more left than Casa and Barrera did at that point. No real debate to be had. Marquez was naturally bigger than Marco, and carried the weight better too. First time I saw Marco look soft in the body when he fought Marquez. Not a terribly great win. Casamayor went life and death with one dimensional Katsidis and should have lost to Cruz. Good win, not a great one.

I really didn't need to type that out....

Struggling with the likes of Rocky Juarez.

Struggling with Katsidis, losing to Cruz.

Lost to Campbell, but a good win nonetheless. "Good" being the operative word.

As I say, not really going to get in a big back and forth with you about this Power Puncher. You can tell me how old Barrera was as if I didn't already know and that he was champion at the time of the Marquez fight. You quote numbers and recite what can be read off Boxrec, and I'll go by what I know having watched the fights themselves. They were good wins, not great wins.

You can do this with anyones record though Addie, its rare to find a fighter beating another great in their prime. I'm not saying Casa/MAB were prime, neither was JMM, did he have more left? YEs, well credit to him then. Its not his fault MAB and Morales ducked him when he was younger. Also both the Casa and MAB fights were his first fights in a new division

As for watching fights I take you missed MAB-Juarez 2, that was a massive struggle wasnt it?

Its not like his legacy is only reliant on them either, he beat Pac twice for my money. Also lets just ignore all the tricky featherweights he fought, while MAB/Morales were taking on the shot to pieces Kevin Kelly

Addie · 09-20-2010, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

You can do this with anyones record though Addie, its rare to find a fighter beating another great in their prime. I'm not saying Casa/MAB were prime, neither was JMM, did he have more left? YEs, well credit to him then. Its not his fault MAB and Morales ducked him when he was younger. Also both the Casa and MAB fights were his first fights in a new division

As for watching fights I take you missed MAB-Juarez 2, that was a massive struggle wasnt it?

Its not like his legacy is only reliant on them either, he beat Pac twice for my money. Also lets just ignore all the tricky featherweights he fought, while MAB/Morales were taking on the shot to pieces Kevin Kelly

Okay, cool.

Barrera and Morales have great wins on their resume, whereas Marquez has very good ones. There's the difference.

MAG1965 · 09-20-2010, 12:13 PM

I think he comes up way short of ATG. He benefited from fighting guys at the right time, and then he later fought guys who were not that great. When he did fight Mayweather he lost easily. He lost to John.

yaca you · 09-20-2010, 12:24 PM

hold that mayweather loss against him do you magi?

PowerPuncher · 09-20-2010, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Addie

Okay, cool.

Barrera and Morales have great wins on their resume, whereas Marquez has very good ones. There's the difference.

All fought Pacquaio twice/3 times, who did better over a series? I don't even rate JMM above them, I'd say all are largely on par with each other

Addie · 09-20-2010, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

All fought Pacquaio twice/3 times, who did better over a series? I don't even rate JMM above them, I'd say all are largely on par with each other

Erik Morales actually defeated Pacquiao whereas the best Marquez managed was a draw. Is Pat Cowdell better than Wilfredo Gomez because he was more competitive in losing to Salvador Sanchez?

Ultimately we will all have different criteria but what irritated me about your opening response was how you were omitting obvious facts. Technically you're correct, Marquez and Barrera are practically the same age, but what relevance does that have? We both know Barrera was far more removed from his prime than Marquez was, and thus the win is simply a good one as opposed to great. Likewise, we both know, the world knows, that Casamayor was significantly more faded than the Mexican and thus the win is just a good one, not a great one.

I couldn't give a crap about what belts they held at the time of the defeats, that doesn't even begin to tell the full story and you surely know this.

sweet_scientist · 09-20-2010, 01:37 PM

Is Marlon Starling an ATG?

Is Winky Wright an ATG?

If JMM is, then they are too.

Boro chris · 09-20-2010, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pachilles

I know, my point is though it is very much the case with most ATG fighters. Calzaghe gets no credit for the Hopkins and Jones wins. However, where would Marciano rank without his wins over past prime Louis and Walcott? Certainly not top 5 ATG HW

Calzaghe should get some credit for the Hopkins win but not Jones.
That was a clearly shot fighter by the time Joe got to him.

Anyway. Marquez is an excellent fighter and a credit to the sport but he's never struck me as truly an atg.

techks · 09-20-2010, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Addie

That have campaigned in the last 10 years who would probably make my top 100.

Manny Pacquiao
Roy Jones Jr
Bernard Hopkins
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Marco Antonio Barrera
Erik Morales

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godfather

That's fair enough if you consider everyone in a top 100 list to be ATG's. I haven't got a p4p list but I reckon I'd only consider the top 35/40 to be ATG's. If you have too many the term becomes meaningless.

Let me in this. I would consider all of the above ATGs but Floyd needs to step it up more to be considered one imo. I'll be harsh, it comes with being a purist lol. I have to agree with Godfather that having too many ATGs makes the word "all-time great" lose it's value.

techks · 09-20-2010, 02:16 PM

To answer Addie, no as much as I like JMM I don't consider him an ATG. HOF bound? yes. An ATG? no. This topic of who's an ATG or not can go on and on and suggest things such as "Who did he beat to become great? Did he beat any great fighter in their prime? What's his best win" It all goes on to be a long discussion.

View Poll Results: Juan Manuel Marquez: Great fighter or All-Time Great fighter?
Yes, I consider him to be an ATG	35	53.85%
No, he's just very good.	30	46.15%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

09-20-2010, 10:39 AM	#16
Nicky P Jamiva Boxing ESB Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: NYC Posts: 714 vCash: 500	Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG I agree, he's an excellent fighter and a warrior. But not quite all time great.
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09-20-2010, 10:44 AM	#17
PowerPuncher ESB Junkie East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 30,729 vCash: 1000	Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG He's an ATG, avoided for years, his fans argue hes unbeaten in 17years from 126lb-135lbs (although Norwood certainly beat him imo), 3 weight champion fighting the best in each division, fighting tough contenders aswell as established champions. Now he's 37 and still lineal champion in his 3rd weight class Lets not forget only 2 years ago half of the fans rated him above Pacquaio
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09-20-2010, 10:45 AM	#18
Pachilles Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 4,480 vCash: 75	Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG This talk of the word great being used too loosely is really silly. You can put a limit on the word "greatest" but i dont think you can on "great".
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09-20-2010, 12:13 PM	#23
MAG1965 P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Dallas,Texas. Posts: 18,248 vCash: 1010	Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG I think he comes up way short of ATG. He benefited from fighting guys at the right time, and then he later fought guys who were not that great. When he did fight Mayweather he lost easily. He lost to John.
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09-20-2010, 12:24 PM	#24
yaca you Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 2,546 vCash: 75	Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG hold that mayweather loss against him do you magi?
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09-20-2010, 01:37 PM	#27
sweet_scientist Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,301 vCash: 1000	Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG Is Marlon Starling an ATG? Is Winky Wright an ATG? If JMM is, then they are too.
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09-20-2010, 02:16 PM	#30
techks ATG list Killah! East Side VIP Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: ......Bit stalkerish to ask where I live don't ya think? Posts: 10,897 vCash: 85	Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG To answer Addie, no as much as I like JMM I don't consider him an ATG. HOF bound? yes. An ATG? no. This topic of who's an ATG or not can go on and on and suggest things such as "Who did he beat to become great? Did he beat any great fighter in their prime? What's his best win" It all goes on to be a long discussion.
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