Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

[McGrain]

A wonderful fighter.

[Addie]

Originally Posted by McGrain

A wonderful fighter.

Indeed. Sublime.

Is he an ATG though, in your mind?

[El Bujia]

Originally Posted by Godfather

That's fair enough if you consider everyone in a top 100 list to be ATG's. I haven't got a p4p list but I reckon I'd only consider the top 35/40 to be ATG's. If you have too many the term becomes meaningless.

I don't rank guys like Chavez, Saddler, Griffith, Arguello, Hearns, Marciano, Spinks, Pacquiao, Sanchez, Tiger, Harada, etc. etc. in that range. Would you consider them all time greats? I certainly would. I think there were most certainly up to 100 fighters I'd consider all time greats. In a sport ranging from 8 to 17 weight classes spanning a total of up to 130 years, I hardly think that's a preposterous position to hold.

[Addie]

Spinks must surely be on the cusp of your top 40, Bujia? No?

[lefthook31]

Nope

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by Addie

Erik Morales actually defeated Pacquiao whereas the best Marquez managed was a draw. Is Pat Cowdell better than Wilfredo Gomez because he was more competitive in losing to Salvador Sanchez?

Ultimately we will all have different criteria but what irritated me about your opening response was how you were omitting obvious facts. Technically you're correct, Marquez and Barrera are practically the same age, but what relevance does that have? We both know Barrera was far more removed from his prime than Marquez was, and thus the win is simply a good one as opposed to great. Likewise, we both know, the world knows, that Casamayor was significantly more faded than the Mexican and thus the win is just a good one, not a great one.

I couldn't give a crap about what belts they held at the time of the defeats, that doesn't even begin to tell the full story and you surely know this.

Saying the best Marquez did against Pacquaio is managing a draw is also omitting facts, he won more rounds than Pac in both fights, and the majority of polls had him winning the rematch, if not the first

As for the MAB/Casa issue, yes they were past prime, and MAB was above his best weight (which in fairness JMM may have been but he carried 130 better). But MAB is an ATG, Casa is a near great. Both have elite boxing skills even if past prime. To write off those 2 wins as 'so what' is very unfair to Marquez. The there is his featherweight tenure, where he took on all kinds of tricky tasks, all the top10 contenders that while not great were good fighters of different styles.

Earlier in his career Marquez suffered from being 'a who needs him' fighter, a promoter (Arum) who didn't want to match him against his cash cow in Morales and bad management that advised him not to take the short money against Hamed/Pacquaio rematch. If he got Pacquaio 6months after the first fight it likely would be a clear cut victory, instead JMM deteriated, Pac got better, and the majority of neutral fans still had JMM winning.

At the end of the day it depends on your definition of greatness, but for my money he probably makes a Top6 Mexican List.

[anarci]

Originally Posted by Addie

That have campaigned in the last 10 years who would probably make my top 100.

Manny Pacquiao
Roy Jones Jr
Bernard Hopkins
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Marco Antonio Barrera
Erik Morales

Do you mean in their primes (last 10 years) or fights? Cause if so your list is severly incomplete. ODLH WTF???? As far as top 100 id also add Marquez,Tito,Mosely,Winky, Lewis,Tszyu and possibly Calzaghe. IF you wanna get technichal Lopez(2001 last fight),Tyson,Holyfield,Nelson,Fenech,Tapia.

[anarci]

Originally Posted by Panthers89

i second that, its just like when you call someone who is just good or very good a "Great" fighter, the fighters from the golden age like Charley burley, ezzard charles, and Jersey Joe Walcott. were "Great" fighters. They are throwing ATG out there so much that its losing its value

Jersey Joe was awesome to watch but based on resumes alone, i would not rank him over Juan M Marquez Charles and Burley yes.

[Pachilles]

Originally Posted by anarci

Do you mean in their primes (last 10 years) or fights? Cause if so your list is severly incomplete. ODLH WTF???? As far as top 100 id also add Marquez,Tito,Mosely,Winky, Lewis,Tszyu and possibly Calzaghe. IF you wanna get technichal Lopez(2001 last fight),Tyson,Holyfield,Nelson,Fenech,Tapia.

minus Fenech and Tapia, i agree!

[Addie]

Saying the best Marquez did against Pacquaio is managing a draw is also omitting facts, he won more rounds than Pac in both fights, and the majority of polls had him winning the rematch, if not the first

He drew the first fight and lost the second. Those are the facts.

As for the MAB/Casa issue, yes they were past prime, and MAB was above his best weight (which in fairness JMM may have been but he carried 130 better). But MAB is an ATG, Casa is a near great. Both have elite boxing skills even if past prime. To write off those 2 wins as 'so what' is very unfair to Marquez. The there is his featherweight tenure, where he took on all kinds of tricky tasks, all the top10 contenders that while not great were good fighters of different styles.

Good job I wasn't writing those wins off as "so what". They are very good wins, not great ones, but unfortunately for Marquez, they probably stand as two of his most impressive victories next to the Juan Diaz fights.

I don't put a great deal of stock in the fighters Marquez was facing at 126lbs. Tricky customers? Manuel Medina? Robbie Peden? Derrick Gainer? Certainly fights Marquez would be expected to win and win well. Decent, but nothing particularly noteworthy in my estimation. I believe Marco to have a more impressive Featherweight resume even despite the Pacquiao defeat.

Earlier in his career Marquez suffered from being 'a who needs him' fighter, a promoter (Arum) who didn't want to match him against his cash cow in Morales and bad management that advised him not to take the short money against Hamed/Pacquaio rematch. If he got Pacquaio 6months after the first fight it likely would be a clear cut victory, instead JMM deteriated, Pac got better, and the majority of neutral fans still had JMM winning.

Cool. If it isn't speculation, it's irrelevant.

At the end of the day it depends on your definition of greatness, but for my money he probably makes a Top6 Mexican List.

Exactly what I said, but it's a shame you had to imply the Barrera and Casa victories were more impressive than they are in reality.

[anarci]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

He's an ATG, avoided for years, his fans argue hes unbeaten in 17years from 126lb-135lbs (although Norwood certainly beat him imo), 3 weight champion fighting the best in each division, fighting tough contenders aswell as established champions. Now he's 37 and still lineal champion in his 3rd weight class

Lets not forget only 2 years ago half of the fans rated him above Pacquaio

Agree with your post Except for the Norwood comment, no one deserved that fight it was ugly reminded me of the Mora/Mosley fight, Marquez/Norwood should have been a draw.

[lora]

Casamayor hasn't been a good fighter since he lost to castillo imo.Even then he was on the way down.

[Addie]

Originally Posted by anarci

Do you mean in their primes (last 10 years) or fights? Cause if so your list is severly incomplete. ODLH WTF???? As far as top 100 id also add Marquez,Tito,Mosely,Winky, Lewis,Tszyu and possibly Calzaghe. IF you wanna get technichal Lopez(2001 last fight),Tyson,Holyfield,Nelson,Fenech,Tapia.

Yeah, you're being typically pedantic. Tapia, Nelson, Holyfield, and Tyson all got their best work done before the 2000s. It's true, so did Jones Jr.

Mosley, Lopez, Trinidad, Tszyu, and Calzaghe probably wouldn't make my top 100.

[anarci]

Originally Posted by Pachilles

minus Fenech and Tapia, i agree!

No those guys are great id definetly rate both of them over Calzaghe who in my opinion is borderline but just makes the cut.

[anarci]

Originally Posted by Addie

Yeah, you're being typically pedantic. Tapia, Nelson, Holyfield, and Tyson all got their best work done before the 2000s. It's true, so did Jones Jr.

Mosley, Lopez, Trinidad, Tszyu, and Calzaghe probably wouldn't make my top 100.

Thats why you have to do your homework before making such outrageous statements. If you mentioned Jones you have to give consideration to the other guys(not that they were better,but they were still great).

Do you think ODLH was great?