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View Poll Results: Juan Manuel Marquez: Great fighter or All-Time Great fighter?
Yes, I consider him to be an ATG 35 53.85%
No, he's just very good. 30 46.15%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-20-2010, 03:59 PM   #61
Addie
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by anarci View Post
Power Puncher is Mexican?!?!!!!!!?
Trust me, you haven't owned anyone, you've never owned anyone. You just embarrass yourself using ridiculous terminology.

You're 40 years of age. Raise the bar.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:59 PM   #62
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Spinks must surely be on the cusp of your top 40, Bujia? No?
Really? Of that exclusive list Spinks is the guy you decided to question? Nah, I know you like him. For me, he's borderline top 50. As I've said before, I don't even take my own lists seriously. They're mostly just experimental.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:00 PM   #63
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Going into child mode now are we, PP?

I didn't say they didn't count, only that I don't consider Chavez and Whitaker to be among the five best opponents he faced on the night.

I take the Mayweather and Pacquiao losses with a pinch of salt for obvious reasons, but whereas Oscar was undeniably past his best, both Floyd and Pacquiao were also undersized going into fights with The Golden Boy.

As things stand, Oscar did indeed lose to the best five fighters he faced in my judgment, and that's a pretty big factor to consider when ranking him.
Well the thing is you were off base on a few thing, let me give you my honest assessment of Oscar. The thing is Oscar beat Tito, nevermind what the judges said, Mosley 2 I'd say he probably won but it isn't the robbery many make it out to be. I'm sure even the past prime Whitaker he faced was amongst his best opponents and it was a close 50-50 fight - near a draw, but remember Whitaker/Oscar/Toney/Jones were all in the race for P4P no1 then. Quartey too is amongst his best and imo he lost to Quartey. Vargas, Chavez, Gonzalez are very good wins
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:02 PM   #64
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Marquez has generally faced opponents throughout his career more stylistically challenging than Morales ever did and perhaps even than Barrera did at times. It's always been stated by his detractors (and his admirers) that good movers and counterpunchers who don't take the lead stand a good chance of beating him. Even if you don't rank Marquez as a true ATG - a fair enough stance - it's negligent to forget the convincing jobs that he did on on the Polo's, Medina's and Salido's, the likes of whom should have been hard matchups on paper and were types who no-one else wanted to fight for one reason or another.
Barrera has his recovery from heavy defeats and the great win over Hamed to perhaps distinguish himself slightly, even though Hamed was made for him in many ways. Otherwise, the records of himself, Morales and Marquez are close to even as far I can tell. Doing as well as Marquez did against Pac (I thought he won both times) is arguably as good as beating Morales two out of three or taking one from a trilogy with Pacquiao himself before losing heavily in the subsequent rematches.

It might also be worth saying I reckon that a prime Barrera might have edged a prime Marquez whereas a prime Morales could well have been outboxed.


That's a pretty nice post.










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Old 09-20-2010, 04:02 PM   #65
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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It makes Marquez not that impressive at that weight.
While tongue in cheek I think this is indicative of the classic forum's attitude of 'If an old time fighter has a close fight or loses, so what they're old and great and that opponent was tough as hell' and when a modern fighter does the same 'see they couldn't hang with those old timers'
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:04 PM   #66
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by Tin_Ribs View Post
Marquez has generally faced opponents throughout his career more stylistically challenging than Morales ever did and perhaps even than Barrera did at times. It's always been stated by his detractors (and his admirers) that good movers and counterpunchers who don't take the lead stand a good chance of beating him. Even if you don't rank Marquez as a true ATG - a fair enough stance - it's negligent to forget the convincing jobs that he did on on the Polo's, Medina's and Salido's, the likes of whom should have been hard matchups on paper and were types who no-one else wanted to fight for one reason or another.
Barrera has his recovery from heavy defeats and the great win over Hamed to perhaps distinguish himself slightly, even though Hamed was made for him in many ways. Otherwise, the records of himself, Morales and Marquez are close to even as far I can tell. Doing as well as Marquez did against Pac (I thought he won both times) is arguably as good as beating Morales two out of three or taking one from a trilogy with Pacquiao himself before losing heavily in the subsequent rematches.

It might also be worth saying I reckon that a prime Barrera might have edged a prime Marquez whereas a prime Morales could well have been outboxed.
Great post, I agree 100%
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:06 PM   #67
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
While tongue in cheek I think this is indicative of the classic forum's attitude of 'If an old time fighter has a close fight or loses, so what they're old and great and that opponent was tough as hell' and when a modern fighter does the same 'see they couldn't hang with those old timers'
lora isn't guilty of that, to be fair.


I agree with you, kinda, where Casamayor is concerned though. It's true he was beaten by Santa Cruz, but he basically turned back the clock against Katsidis, and he looked goodish against Marquez. Marquez, of course, became the first man to knock him out in his first fight at the weight. Whatever else he was, Casamayor certainly wasn't the easiest fight Marquez could have made at the weight.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:09 PM   #68
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

I'm also sort of in agreement with lora about the overall significance of Marquez's lightweight tenure (though I've so far thoroughly enjoyed it nonetheless) and the tendency for some Mexican fighters from bygone, deeper eras to be ignored in comparison.

Still, a wonderful fighter. It'll earn him some more mileage if he beats Katsidis convincingly.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:10 PM   #69
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
Trust me, you haven't owned anyone, you've never owned anyone. You just embarrass yourself using ridiculous terminology.

You're 40 years of age. Raise the bar.
WTF are you talking about Addie ive already owned you on your own thread. Making comments and omissions from atg list when yet you have admitted you havent followed their career enough. Or maybe you just did it to yourself? You have also made ridiculous statements regarding Marquez and PP has comeback with valid comebacks only for you 2 twist the facts around.

Anarci Ko 1 Addie
Power Puncher Ko 1 Addie
Addie Ko 1 Addie

Maybe you should lower the bar Addie and go pick on some tomato cans in the General.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:12 PM   #70
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Marquez has generally faced opponents throughout his career more stylistically challenging than Morales ever did and perhaps even than Barrera did at times. It's always been stated by his detractors (and his admirers) that good movers and counterpunchers who don't take the lead stand a good chance of beating him. Even if you don't rank Marquez as a true ATG - a fair enough stance - it's negligent to forget the convincing jobs that he did on on the Polo's, Medina's and Salido's, the likes of whom should have been hard matchups on paper and were types who no-one else wanted to fight for one reason or another.
One can't fail to be impressed with Juan Manuel Marquez when he's fighting lesser opposition. The context we're discussing him in here though would require a little bit more of him in my estimation. There's never been any question even in my mind that in terms of ability he should certainly be ranked alongside his Mexican contemporaries, but I think there's additional factors to consider when evaluating the greatness of fighters.

The three punch combination he lands in the Manuel Medina fight, a one-two followed by a left uppercut, was certainly memorable.

Quote:
Barrera has his recovery from heavy defeats and the great win over Hamed to perhaps distinguish himself slightly, even though Hamed was made for him in many ways.
Revisionist history. The odds tell a different story. It was thought to be believed that Marco Antonio Barrera was far to aggressive and hittable to be able to sustain the punching power of The Prince for 12 rounds. He had shown boxing ability before, certainly, and looked astounding against Jesus Salud, but that was against a former contender who was nearing the end of his career, Hamed was a P4P rated fighter without a blemish on his record. In hindsight, we say that Barrera had his number and that Morales and Marquez would have done a similar job, but that's all speculation.

Quote:
Otherwise, the records of himself, Morales and Marquez are close to even as far I can tell. Doing as well as Marquez did against Pac (I thought he won both times) is arguably as good as beating Morales two out of three or taking one from a trilogy with Pacquiao himself before losing heavily in the subsequent rematches.
This is where we differ. I don't credit him for having defeated Manny Pacquiao, and I certainly believe Barrera and Morales' respective victories over one another and Morales over Pacquiao to be infinitely more impressive than anything on Dinamita's win column. As I said in my opening post, I do think it almost depends entirely on how you view Marquez's two fights with Manny Pacquiao.

Quote:
It might also be worth saying I reckon that a prime Barrera might have edged a prime Marquez whereas a prime Morales could well have been outboxed.
Who knows. Marquez has lost to lesser fighters than Erik Morales in his prime, whereas I can't really say the same, vice versa.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:16 PM   #71
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Well the thing is you were off base on a few thing, let me give you my honest assessment of Oscar. The thing is Oscar beat Tito, nevermind what the judges said, Mosley 2 I'd say he probably won but it isn't the robbery many make it out to be. I'm sure even the past prime Whitaker he faced was amongst his best opponents and it was a close 50-50 fight - near a draw, but remember Whitaker/Oscar/Toney/Jones were all in the race for P4P no1 then. Quartey too is amongst his best and imo he lost to Quartey. Vargas, Chavez, Gonzalez are very good wins
Absolutely.

You'll notice that I said that even in despite of his losses, Oscar is sporting a very healthy resume by contemporary standards. Victories over Quartey, Whitaker, Vargas, Mayorga, and Hernandez is good form. Perhaps we should stop and think about what it is we're actually arguing about here. I haven't made any definitive statements about Oscar De La Hoya regarding any placements. I've already acknowledged that I need to do more research before I step into that territory. That being said, I do believe it to be true that he lost the majority of his biggest fights. I don't see any other way to see it.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:17 PM   #72
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
While tongue in cheek I think this is indicative of the classic forum's attitude of 'If an old time fighter has a close fight or loses, so what they're old and great and that opponent was tough as hell' and when a modern fighter does the same 'see they couldn't hang with those old timers'
You've lost me.


btw i'd agre with McGrain that the Casamayor win was solid in the context of where Marquez was at in his career(imo pretty clearly past his prime).I'd just disagree with anyone citing it as an outright big win over a "near great" or excellent opponent.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:20 PM   #73
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

You talk about Marquez losing to lesser fighters in his prime? If you really think about his only true loss IMO was to Floyd Mayweather,and we already know the uphill battle he had going into that fight.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:23 PM   #74
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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I'd just disagree with anyone citing it as an outright big win over a "near great" or excellent opponent.
I've described it as a good win. I think that does it justice.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:24 PM   #75
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Default Re: Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

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You talk about Marquez losing to lesser fighters in his prime? If you really think about his only true loss IMO was to Floyd Mayweather,and we already know the uphill battle he had going into that fight.
We're talking about his record in reality, not in Anarci's alternate universe.
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