Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by Addie

Okay, cool.

Barrera and Morales have great wins on their resume, whereas Marquez has very good ones. There's the difference.

How do you rate Barrera's win over Naseem, then? The Prince could also be said to be past his best, I guess.

[WhataRock]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Shot fighters do not go on to beat a physical beast like Scottie Harrison. Medina's competition was pretty amazing over the years too

I can think of a ton of faded featherweights that would have beaten Harrison.

Medina was very past it, the fact he was able to make comebacks is commendable and proves his heart and ability but more so reflects the weakness of his opposition at that stage of his career.

He kept himself in shape and he could keep throwing a lot of punches...but his reflexes and punch resistance was getting pretty worn by that stage.

[Addie]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

How do you rate Barrera's win over Naseem, then? The Prince could also be said to be past his best, I guess.

You don't sound too convinced yourself. Good man.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by Addie

You don't sound too convinced yourself. Good man.

I didn't follow him that closely, but it seemed to me that he'd gone more for predictable power punching. The feeling I got is that he had started to slip a bit, but it's just a feeling without a conclusive base. But you feel he was still prime?

(Of course, that he was a taylor made match-up just waiting to found out is beyond debate, of course, but that's another discussion)

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by WhataRock

I can think of a ton of faded featherweights that would have beaten Harrison.

Medina was very past it, the fact he was able to make comebacks is commendable and proves his heart and ability but more so reflects the weakness of his opposition at that stage of his career.

He kept himself in shape and he could keep throwing a lot of punches...but his reflexes and punch resistance was getting pretty worn by that stage.

I think Medina was past prime but nowhere near shot. Harrison is a little underrated, he maybe 1 of the strognest featherweights ever and as tough as old boots. If Medina deserved the decision over Tapia thats also showing decent form

[Addie]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

(Of course, that he was a taylor made match-up just waiting to found out is beyond debate, of course, but that's another discussion)

How much money did you bet on a Barrera win? I bet you're a rich man.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by Addie

How much money did you bet on a Barrera win? I bet you're a rich man.

Sore spot, eh? That's alright, a little quality time with one of your Winona dolls should make everything better again. Go ahead, you know you want to.

[Addie]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

Sore spot, eh? That's alright, a little quality time with one of your Winona dolls should make everything better again. Go ahead, you know you want to.

Sore spot?

[WhataRock]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

I think Medina was past prime but nowhere near shot. Harrison is a little underrated, he maybe 1 of the strognest featherweights ever and as tough as old boots. If Medina deserved the decision over Tapia thats also showing decent form

I wouldnt go as far to say he was shot either but he was closer to shot than he was to prime.

The pasting he took from Marquez certainly added to that, the fact he upset Harrison had more to do with Scott being an alcoholic and pretty mediocre outside of his physical strength.

There was big raps on Harrison coming from your part of the world but he just really was never that good.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by WhataRock

I wouldnt go as far to say he was shot either but he was closer to shot than he was to prime.

The pasting he took from Marquez certainly added to that, the fact he upset Harrison had more to do with Scott being an alcoholic and pretty mediocre outside of his physical strength.

There was big raps on Harrison coming from your part of the world but he just really was never that good.

I would never call Harrison great, he was limited but he was definately world class and showed it at times. I was never a fan of him though and wanted to see Guzman or JMM beat him up tbh, I was gutted to see Broadie get beaten up by him

[MrWonderful]

Originally Posted by Addie

Barrera and Casamayor ceased to be great by the time Marquez fought them.

I'm underwhelmed by his win column, really. I think he has work to do.

Morales, De la Hoya, Hatton, Margarito, Cotto, Barrera 2 were all as bad when manny fought them.

Barrera was destroyed by Marquez 4 months before Manny struggled to a win in their rematch

[Addie]

Originally Posted by MrWonderful

Morales, De la Hoya, Hatton, Margarito, Cotto, Barrera 2 were all as bad when manny fought them.

Barrera was destroyed by Marquez 4 months before Manny struggled to a win in their rematch

Your quote is an embarrassment. You clearly haven't watched the fight.

[MrWonderful]

Originally Posted by Addie

I knew someone would have to drag this out...everybody with a pulse and who has been watching the current scene knows that Marquez had a lot more left than Casa and Barrera did at that point. No real debate to be had. Marquez was naturally bigger than Marco, and carried the weight better too. First time I saw Marco look soft in the body when he fought Marquez. Not a terribly great win. Casamayor went life and death with one dimensional Katsidis and should have lost to Cruz. Good win, not a great one.

I really didn't need to type that out....

Struggling with the likes of Rocky Juarez.

Struggling with Katsidis, losing to Cruz.

Lost to Campbell, but a good win nonetheless. "Good" being the operative word.

As I say, not really going to get in a big back and forth with you about this Power Puncher. You can tell me how old Barrera was as if I didn't already know and that he was champion at the time of the Marquez fight. You quote numbers and recite what can be read off Boxrec, and I'll go by what I know having watched the fights themselves. They were good wins, not great wins.

This sort of stuff just isn't subjective


Morales lost to barrera the fight before he beat Manny.

Morales lost to Zaheer Rahman, the fight before he lost to Pacquiao, and 4 straight afterwards

Barrera was destroyed by Marquez the fight before Manny boxed out a close win in their rematch

Cotto had lost to Margarito, and struggled with Clottey, pre Pacquiao

De la Hoya was awful against Steve Forbes the fight before Pacquiao

Hatton had been destroyed by Mayweather before Pacquiao

Margarito had bee destroyed by an old Mosely, before Pacquiao

[MrWonderful]

Originally Posted by Addie

Your quote is an embarrassment. You clearly haven't watched the fight.

I'm talking plain fact. The point is you can't handle people questioning Pacquiao wins the same way you do to Marquez.

These are facts.

Morales lost to an old Barrera directly before he beat pacquiao. He was coming off a loss.

Morales lost to Zaheer Rahman directly before he lost to Pacquiao, and lost 4 straight afterwards. Including a loss to David Diaz.

Barrera was destroyed by Marquez, 3 months before Manny boxed out a pretty close win in their rematch

Manny's wins at that weight, against living breathing opposition, were probably Barrera 1 and Marquez 2. The rest all have real question marks.

[MrWonderful]

Originally Posted by Addie

Your quote is an embarrassment. You clearly haven't watched the fight.

Marquez beat him way easier.