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Old 09-23-2010, 07:35 PM   #76
TheGreatA
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Maxim would be lucky to make top 10 light heavyweights.
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Old 09-23-2010, 07:41 PM   #77
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Thats a bizarre choice I must say...Especially considering there is no Charles or Moore in his top 10, both whom beat Maxim several times.
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Old 09-23-2010, 07:41 PM   #78
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
1. Bob Fitzsimmons - To be honest, if he isnt on a top 10 list, the list almost defies belief and it is clear the writer simply hasnt got around to researching him yet, imo. To list briefly, SOME of his achievements:

- At one point in time, he was the best lightweight in the world (as good a claim as any)
- At one pont in time, he was the undisputed World Welterweight (150) champion or at least as close as you can get to that title.
- He was the considered the best middleweight in the world for far longer than any other fighter has ever been considered the best middleweight in the world.
- He is the only light heavyweight, ever to win the undisputed World Heavyweight title.
- He was the best light heavyweight in the world for as long or longer than any other light heavyweight.
- For most of this time, he doubled as the best light heavyweight and heavyweight in the world.
- he fought over 300 fights with his only real stoppage losses coming well after his prime against heavyweights Jeffries and Lang.
- He has as many KO stoppages against top 3 heavyweight contenders as anyone else, and probably more one punch KOs and countouts than virtually any other fighters. Except he never weight more than a super middleweight.
- His other accomplishments are too numerous to list.

2. Harry Greb - Another absolute great record, but while he is definitely one to be mentioned in close to the same breath, his record doesnt compare. He wasnt the same brutal puncher and as a result, on his bad nights, many fighters did run him close or even gain newspaper results (sometimes controversially). Still, He scored wins over some of the best fighters in history, and as many point out, the sign of a champion, even when he lost his sight, he still performed great. I dont always rate him quite this high, but today i think he deserves position 2.

3. Sam Langford. - Like Fitzsimmons, Sam Started as a lightweight and moved on to a bonafide heavyweight. Strangely though, Sam doesnt have the same spectacular performances as a lightweight and certainly didnt carry on as successfully in the past prime period as Bob either. Still, as Sam gained experienced he became a truly great fighter and his performances at heavyweight and incredible power almost defied belief. A true pound for pound great.

4. Henry Armstrong - What a true pound for pound great. Triple Crown winner says it all. No one has replicated this (well probably except for Fitzsimmons) but this truly defines pound for pound great. Compared to other greats he burned bright and quick in a pound for pound sense, which is the only reason why i have dropped him from no 2.

5. Roberto Duran - Invincible at lightweight, beat a top 10 Welterweight in Sugar Ray Leonard, Competed with a top 10 and probably better middleweight in Hagler. As an old man he beat a good middleweight like Barkley, and he even competed reasonably as a cruiserweight even though he was old out of shape and totally passed it. He is a true pound for pound great, in my book.

6. Sugar Ray Robinson - He dominated his own class as well as anyone and then went up to middleweight. Although i think his middleweight dominance was overrated, it is very rare and special for a fighter to be so clearly the top fighter in two separate weight divisions.

7. Joey Maxim - This is the first time i have rated Joey top 10, and i came within an inch of rating him above Sugar Ray Robinson, but didnt because he didnt have the same dominance in any particular weight division. Still, His win list includes Sugar Ray Robinson, Floyd Paterson, Jersey Joe Walcott, Lee Oma, Curtis Hatchetman Sheppard, Ted Lowry, Gus Lesnevich, Jimmy Bivins, Pat Valentino and others. That is an extremely impressive list of names that not very many have. And despite fightting all of these greats, plus other greats like Archie Moore, Eddie Machen and Lloyd Marshall, and several while he was out of prime, only the hatchetman was able to stop him (and that was avenged).

8. Rocky Marciano - This will really cause some stirs, but i am sticking it to it. He is given a raw deal in this category by most people, but the Fact is he beat pound for pound greats Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, Joe Louis. And he was outweighed by all of them at one point! Louis was old. And Yes charles did a lot more at the lighter weight, but if you compare the size of Ezzard to the size of Rocky at their respective ages, Ezzard was probably naturally bigger! certainly in height and eventually in weight also. If Rocky hadnt started so late, who knows, he probably would have been a middleweight and light heavy in his teens and early 20s if in fighting shape also. Rocky made the most of very limited natural advantages and was a small heavyweight always outweighed and never ever having been beaten. I think he can make a top 10.

9. Gene Tunney - Often underated on these lists, but he did beat every fighter he faced. He beat a top 3 atg middleweight in Greb (in a series), a top 10 (higher on many lists) Heavyweight in Dempsey, and arguably a top 10 light heavyeight in Loughran. Yes he got them all at perfect times, but that was part of his skill, he was the smartest fighter of many, and he timed his challenges perfectly. Plus, he looked pretty great on film. I could have easlily put Charles here, and some may say should have, but I think Tunney's smarts lift him above.

10 Manny Pacquia. I have tried to pick guys with a legacy to stand apart from others. There are countless guys who have dominated one division spectacularly but to be a true pound for pound great you need to move through the divisions (at least the way i am doing todays list). Manny is clearly doing this, at a time when massive weight divisions and title belts do make it hard. In modern times, not many others have done what he is doing and i see that my list doesnt have many modern fighters or lighter weight fighters. I am not so certain that he will rate here at the end of his career, but i am giving him a little benefit of the doubt.
Your list is an abortion, I'm sorry.
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:37 PM   #79
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Boilermakers list rules... except for Maxim. Ill write that off as a curveball. Marciano should have been on my list. Fitzsimmons was truly a freak of nature. Bold but supportable move putting him at number 1.
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:46 PM   #80
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Sugar Ray Robinson
Harry Greb
Sam Langford
Ezzard Charles
Henry Armstrong
Roberto Duran
Bob Fitzsimmons
Muhammad Ali
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
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Old 09-23-2010, 09:21 PM   #81
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

1 - Mayweather JR
2 - RJJ
3 - Leonard
4 - Robinson
5 - Hearns
6 - Ali
7 - Holyfield
8- Duran
9 - Adamek
10 - Haye


Pacroid never-ever gonna be on My list cos I HATE teh little cheater.
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Old 09-23-2010, 09:25 PM   #82
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
Maxim would be lucky to make top 10 light heavyweights.
I am not sure i have ever put him in my top 10 light heavyweight lists either. But that doesnt mean he shouldnt be. Look at the fighters he beat.

Sugar Ray Robinson - Most say he is the greatest welterweight of all time, many say he is the greatest Middleweight of all time and most say he is the greatest fighter of all time. Joey beat him. Yes Ray was getting on, but he was still good enough to lift the world title, after this loss. Admittedly, Joey was the bigger fighter.

Jersey Joe Walcott - balances this out, as he is an all time great heavyweight fighter, who Joey managed to beat.

Jimmy Bivens - is another who i think is criminally underated, and i think he was clearly the best heavyweight in the world (outside Joe Louis) for a decent amount of time. Joey beat him too.

For mine, despite some clear inconsistencies, Maxim has some great results. Look at some of the competition he fought one after the other. In 1948 for example, he fought no less than 14 times, including wins over top 10 (of the time) contenders like Valentino, Satersfield, and Jimmy Bivins.

This is probably his peak, but like all greats, he still went on to have fights against the likes of Robinson, Moore, charles etc. Closer to prime Maxim almost certainly gives Moore, Charles etc an even harder fight. In fact, almost certainly, if Moore, Charles, Maxim, Walcott met on their very best nights, they would split series with each other, swap wins and have mostly split decision fights. I tend to think it is near impossible to split all four of these guys. Strangely enough, i think that all 4 probably beat Sugar Ray at any stage, though Ray is obviously smaller so this helps his rating.

Ordinarilly i rank Charles and Moore in my top 10. But, it is near impossible to split them and today, i was particularly impressed with Joey Maxim's record. I have no issue with anyone putting Moore and Charles top 10 in fact i usually do and may even change before the deadline. I think he has beaten as many pound for pound greats as anyone else.

These lists in particular are near impossible to list. How do you leave off a Joe Louis who dominated his division like no other. Or a Carlos Monzon who outclassed a division for a decade. Tommy Ryan, who basically replicated what Sugar Ray Robinson did. Benny Leonard who was a master, Willy Pep, Barbados Joe Walcott, Sugar Ray Leonard, the list goes on and on and on.
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Old 09-23-2010, 09:51 PM   #83
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

At least your trying to back it up Boiler but I think you are overlooking the fact he was beaten by the best of his era, multiple times also. Thus I cant see why he would be ranked above those guys for a start.

The Robinson win deserves a shout but a bull strong light heavy who spent most of his career at heavyweight beating a natural welterweight getting on in years has to be put in perspective.
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Old 09-23-2010, 09:57 PM   #84
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

1. Sam Langford
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Mike Tyson
4. Joe Walcott
5. Young Peter Jackson
6. Rocky Marciano
7. James Toney
8. Muhammad Qawi
9. Chris Byrd
10. Orlin Norris


11. Eder Jofre
12. Charley Burley
13. Carmen Basilio
14. Julio Cesar Chavez
15. Hector Camacho
16. Mysterious Billy Smith
17. Marlon Starling
18. David Tua
19. Joe Frazier
20. Jorge Fernando Castro

21. Mike McCallum
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Old 09-23-2010, 09:59 PM   #85
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Here he is
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Old 09-23-2010, 09:59 PM   #86
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Wheres Oneil Bell franky?
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:39 PM   #87
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
1. Sam Langford
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Mike Tyson
4. Joe Walcott
5. Young Peter Jackson
6. Rocky Marciano
7. James Toney
8. Muhammad Qawi
9. Chris Byrd
10. Orlin Norris


11. Eder Jofre
12. Charley Burley
13. Carmen Basilio
14. Julio Cesar Chavez
15. Hector Camacho
16. Mysterious Billy Smith
17. Marlon Starling
18. David Tua
19. Joe Frazier
20. Jorge Fernando Castro

21. Mike McCallum
Lol, you're a funny guy.....really!
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Old 09-23-2010, 11:49 PM   #88
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

1. Sam Langford
2. Harry Greb
3. Ray Robinson
4. Ezzard Charles
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Joe Gans
8. Roberto Duran
9. Benny Leonard
10. Willie Pep
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Old 09-24-2010, 12:03 AM   #89
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Hasn't changed since last time.

1. Joe Gans
2. Packey McFarland
3. Benny Leonard
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Roy Jones Jr
6. Harry Greb
7. Kid Gavilan
8. Floyd Mayweather Jr
9. Barney Ross
10. Sugar Ray Leonard
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Old 09-24-2010, 05:25 AM   #90
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
1. Sam Langford
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Mike Tyson
4. Joe Walcott
5. Young Peter Jackson
6. Rocky Marciano
7. James Toney
8. Muhammad Qawi
9. Chris Byrd
10. Orlin Norris


11. Eder Jofre
12. Charley Burley
13. Carmen Basilio
14. Julio Cesar Chavez
15. Hector Camacho
16. Mysterious Billy Smith
17. Marlon Starling
18. David Tua
19. Joe Frazier
20. Jorge Fernando Castro

21. Mike McCallum
Where the **** did Chris Byrd come from?
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