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Old 09-27-2010, 06:24 PM   #181
Stonehands89
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by manbearpig View Post
You think he's overrated due to hype - you said as much yourself.
He is overrated because of the hype. And that is confirmed everywhere you look. Do you deny that? I dare you too.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:25 PM   #182
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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...and you'll keep hearing it until you grab his other leg and help me yank Ali out of the clouds.
You sound like the Morning Star. You sound like Lucifer, Stonehands, you've lost it! You're talking about war on a boxing God. **** that, i've seen what happens to the proud when they try to take on the throne...

How many great fighters fought and defeated 3 prime, possible top 10 ATG fighters of one division? How many fighters have defeated an ATG at all, let alone a prime one??? He's beat 5 definate ATG fighters. He's beat a murdeous punching ATG, whilst passed his prime himself. He dominated. His skill set and physical attributes are clear to see, theres no myths and legends he needs to hide behind. How can

If you're a well schooled, objective person, the only reason i see why you would attack him is to spite the casual person that know his name to be the greatest, but would not really be seen or heard discussing boxing on a serious level, so are irrelevant.

Or if you don't give the Heavyweights their due on P4P lists. The Heavyweight division is half a dozen standard weight classes in itself. And the lighter HW's are big enough to take out bigger HW's and be at a weight advantage if their style suits it. And the giants are really giants. Its such an unpredictable and unforgiving division, anyone can knock you out. It really is a feat to fight so many great fighters and massive punchers, yet never once be stopped in that division.

In my opinion if Ali isn't in your top 5, then you're just trying to be a smartass. And anyone thinking of typing a lengthy response to this filled with obscure knowledge, hyperbole, exaggerations and cleverly constructed misleading tangents, you'll only convince a dumbass. Don't try it on me i know of your agenda!
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:25 PM   #183
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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I'm going to expand on my earlier comments now. Notice i've already said that when commenting on who i think were the best fighters ever, is not directly representative of who i rate as the greatest. Anyway, from film, the three best fighters ever for me are Robinson, then Ali and Duran. That's how good Ali was in my opinion. I'm not particularly a fan either, not at all actually. That's an unbiased opinion. There's nothing else i can say on it though, i said earlier on this thread that when it comes to me simply saying who the best were, it's not backed up by resume, it's utlimately an opinion, and i can't justify that, so there's no point in me debating it. Just an opinion. A pretty strong one. Anyway, when it comes to greatness, the likes of McLarnin etc need looking up. And anyone who has Willie Pep in their list and not Ali must have an agenda.
I can't split the two on film Teeto. Great great comparison. And Ali has the depth that's incomparable at HW. That only adds to it... so if Pep is technically better and craftier on film, Ali has his advantages.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:25 PM   #184
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Ali is less durable than Duran?

Ok though, your list is basically H2H and each to his own and fair enough.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:28 PM   #185
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Having Ali inside the top 15 but outside the top ten is not "underrating" him in the least. I'll go further, anyone who has Ali above Greb, Robinson, Armstrong, or Ezzard is either a neophyte, an ignoramus, or a fanboy. Take your pick.

The fact that ESB classic is resistant to the Ali-cult that has long-since taken over the USA adds to its credibility.

It will be interesting to see how Ali is regarded among boxing 'experts' after the baby-boomers die out. The chances are good that the myth and romance surrounding his name will fade away and we'll look at him with our eyes open.
Being a contrarian doesn't add credibility. It didn't in high school, and it still shouldn't now.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:28 PM   #186
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8ZkkHw3sHs[/ame]
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:29 PM   #187
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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He is overrated because of the hype. And that is confirmed everywhere you look. Do you deny that? I dare you too.
He proved his worth over and over again. Hype aside. He's underrated by 'elitists' if anything, in an attempt to go against the grain.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:31 PM   #188
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Ali is less durable than Duran?

Ok though, your list is basically H2H and each to his own and fair enough.
That threw me off too.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:31 PM   #189
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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The Duran argument i don't know about, it's there or there about. But Pep? He's getting a pass the way i see it. No doubt i'll be bombarded with an over-dramatised post detailing how amazing Pep was, which i'm well aware of, being a student of boxing history myself. He's one of the best ever, head to head and for ability. But when we're talking resume that solidifies your ranking, i don't understand Pep>Ali, it's madness to me. People have a problem with Ali's high ranking, i'm very suspicious as to whether that is born of Ali's fame, because it looks like Pep's getting the free pass on this board.
Madness?

I think that you are way off here, and it may be because many students of boxing history are not familiar with his resume and who's on it. Are you aware of how many ranked fighters Pep defeated? Are you aware of his record at his peak?

Ali-Foreman vs. Pep-Saddler II? I'll take the latter, easily. You?
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:34 PM   #190
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
Madness?

I think that you are way off here, and it may be because many students of boxing history are not familiar with his resume and who's on it. Are you aware of how many ranked fighters Pep defeated? Are you aware of his record at his peak?

Ali-Foreman vs. Pep-Saddler II? I'll take the latter, easily. You?
I'm aware fully on both men's careers, i'm not ignorant and underrating any of the contenders either man beat. Ali has a better resume. Say what you want about one win being better. Muhammad Ali was the best heavyweight of TWO great eras. But anyway, i'm only getting into that because you are. Ali's resume is better, straight up.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:36 PM   #191
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

If there is any difference in class between Ali, Pep and Duran, there certainly isn't much to it.

Pep did fight a ridiculous amount of contenders and he did go 62-0 and 134-1 at his peak. I say he can be rated above nearly everybody. Can be, he doesn't have to be.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:38 PM   #192
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

10 Muhammad Ali
9 Charley Burley
8 Sammy Langford
7 Archie Moore
6 Jimmy Wilde
5 Willie Pep
4 Sandy Sadler
3 Roberto Duran
2 Henry Armstrong
1 Ray Robinson
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:40 PM   #193
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Basically it's a sin to be passionate about a popular fighter. How dare I buy into the glitz and hype. Such a sheep I am.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:42 PM   #194
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
You sound like the Morning Star. You sound like Lucifer, Stonehands, you've lost it! You're talking about war on a boxing God. **** that, i've seen what happens to the proud when they try to take on the throne...
....




(I've lost it, he sez)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
How many great fighters fought and defeated 3 prime, possible top 10 ATG fighters of one division? How many fighters have defeated an ATG at all, let alone a prime one??? He's beat 5 definate ATG fighters. He's beat a murdeous punching ATG, whilst passed his prime himself. He dominated. His skill set and physical attributes are clear to see, theres no myths and legends he needs to hide behind. How can

If you're a well schooled, objective person, the only reason i see why you would attack him is to spite the casual person that know his name to be the greatest, but would not really be seen or heard discussing boxing on a serious level, so are irrelevant.

Or if you don't give the Heavyweights their due on P4P lists. The Heavyweight division is half a dozen standard weight classes in itself. And the lighter HW's are big enough to take out bigger HW's and be at a weight advantage if their style suits it. And the giants are really giants. Its such an unpredictable and unforgiving division, anyone can knock you out. It really is a feat to fight so many great fighters and massive punchers, yet never once be stopped in that division.

In my opinion if Ali isn't in your top 5, then you're just trying to be a smartass. And anyone thinking of typing a lengthy response to this filled with obscure knowledge, hyperbole, exaggerations and cleverly constructed misleading tangents, you'll only convince a dumbass. Don't try it on me i know of your agenda!
"Anyone who doesn't have Ali in their top 5 must be a smartass"? Hurling juvenile invectives does not strengthen your position, so get serious or get out of the way and the big boys go at it.

And yes, I do not believe that the HWs are the most skilled or even the most dangerous division. In fact, I'm utterly convinced. Big guys are usually easier to handle for several reasons and I don't know this just be screwing around on the internet or reading books.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:47 PM   #195
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Being a contrarian doesn't add credibility. It didn't in high school, and it still shouldn't now.
The post was not about being a contrarian.

It was about objectively considering the actual, instead of the assumed, greatness of the biggest cultural icon since Elvis.
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