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Old 10-18-2010, 12:42 PM   #346
DonBoxer
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
I think I'll revise my list a bit by adding 1920 as cut-off point. Not that Gans and Langford (and Fitz) weren't great, but since records often are very spotty, film very sparse and official ratings non-existant it gets too difficult including that era. So the new list reads:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Willie Pep
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Benny Leonard
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jimmy McLarnin*
10. Joe Louis

*Don't know much about him aside from his record, really. But he gets in on the strength of his wins over Ambers, Canzoneri, Ross, Young Corbett and Benny Leonard. Until some very strong arguments surface that these wins by a former flyweight aren't really as great as they seem, he stays.
Benny Leonard was 36 and looked dead after the first round.
He won an SD to Ross but also lost one whilst both times out weighing him. When he won he had 6lbs on Ross.
The other wins fair enough i guess.
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Old 10-18-2010, 02:42 PM   #347
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Benny Leonard was 36 and looked dead after the first round.
But he hadn't been defeated for 10 years. Do anyone know if anything have been said of Leonard's condition at the time?

Quote:
He won an SD to Ross but also lost one whilst both times out weighing him. When he won he had 6lbs on Ross.
But the fact still remains that he started at a far lower weight. Toney probably outweighed some of the HWs he met, doesn't make HW his best weight class.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:08 PM   #348
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

I have the following reservations about McClarnin that high.

1) Leonard was busted when they fought.

2) He was generally the bigger man for his biggest wins.

3) There are one or two concerning losses in there, including his first title-tilt. He more than made up for it with his destruction of Corbett though.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:18 PM   #349
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Willie Pep
8. Roberto Duran
9. Benny Leonard
10. Ray Leonard
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:20 PM   #350
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

McLarnin has an amazing record but I think there is also enough evidence on it to prove he aint a GOAT and is one of those second tier greats. If you wanted to include someone from his era, IMO Barney Ross is more than qualified to be in a P4P top ten.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:21 PM   #351
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Agree on Ross.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:21 PM   #352
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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McLarnin has an amazing record but I think there is also enough evidence on it to prove he aint a GOAT and is one of those second tier greats.
What evidence?
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:22 PM   #353
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Disagree with the rest of my statement?

I really do feel Ross is top ten worthy and by that Armstrong has a very valid case to be the GOAT, as he has a near shut out domination win over another top 10 great, can Greb, Fitz, Langford or Robinson boast that?
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:24 PM   #354
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Disagree with the rest of my statement?
Nope. I posted the same thing about two posts back!
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:25 PM   #355
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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What evidence?
The occasional loss to B class opposition, loss to Mandell (although this can be excused IMO), loss to Petrolle, losing the series to Pep and losing the most important fight against Canzoneri.

I think Ross and Canzoneri demonstrated they were superior to him.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:26 PM   #356
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Canzoneri would just outrank McLarnin for me. The fact that he managed to split their fights whilst in the twilight of his career against that caliber of opponent (especially with the size disadvantage) proves his class.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:26 PM   #357
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

This is what McLarnin said about it:
“Benny Leonard was in great shape” said Mclarnin later. “He hit me in the first round and I saw stars, but he had lost all his speed. I knocked him out.”

Clearly Leonard was way past his best, but he still hadn't been defeated for a long time. For a former flyweight it still seems an impressive win for me.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:28 PM   #358
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

Canzoneri got badly ****ed up against McClarnin the first time, one of those FOTC situations where the winner lost more than the loser IMO.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:28 PM   #359
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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For a former flyweight it still seems an impressive win for me.
What does that have to do with anything?
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:29 PM   #360
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Default Re: P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 20)

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Canzoneri got badly ****ed up against McClarnin the first time, one of those FOTC situations where the winner lost more than the loser IMO.
Agreed. That fight was really his last hurrah.
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