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Old 11-27-2010, 12:47 AM   #16
Sprawla
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Default Re: Push-up Challenge

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Originally Posted by repsaccer View Post
Actually it does mean that. When all else is equal (talent, conditioning, nutrition etc.) the bigger man will always be slower since the maximum force the muscle can muster goes up at a lower pace than the weight with size.

Of course this doesn't mean that there aren't any fast big people. However, the fastest heavyweight will always be slower than the fastest flyweight, purely because the maximum strength to mass ratio will be lower at high body weights.

i disagree with this when we are talking just about push ups. If we are talking over all, like over 10 meter sprint, punching combinations, agility. These are more full body movements, then i would agree.
A push up is very isolated, you arnt using much of your body, just triceps and shoulders mainly, so strength is more a factor then anythihng else..
The video i posted isnt push ups, its bench press but same movement, look how big and explosive that guy is, he is benching his own weight. There is no way i could that that with my body weight. I weigh 72kg, that guy weighs easily 100kg. I guarantee i would be quicker then him at everything else that didnt require strength, like running, agilty, punching combinations. But isolated movements like push ups he would smash me every day. I guarantee a guy that weighed 55kg couldnt bench his own body weight like this guy just did.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN6mryoMCdY[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2QxcmFssuU[/ame]
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Old 11-27-2010, 01:27 AM   #17
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Default Re: Push-up Challenge

I must say that's a mighty impressive vid. I guess we will continue to disagree though. I still believe that a smaller man, with exactly the same body build up (huge triceps, pecs etc; basically a clone on a smaller scale) would press his body weight easier due to that progression of power and weight with size.

I have of course no proof of this, it's just that the weight lifting records per weight classes seem to indicate it's at least very plausible. I'll see if i can find some more data sometime.
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Old 11-27-2010, 01:35 AM   #18
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Default Re: Push-up Challenge

Repsaccer is correct. The smaller you are the more likely you are to have a better strength to weight ratio, that's a proven fact. A 55kg guy would be able to bench his own body weight more easily than a 100kg guy all things being equal.
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Old 11-27-2010, 01:59 AM   #19
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Default Re: Push-up Challenge

Of course size has diminishing returns. I weighed 128 pounds last year, (133 now but out of shape), my warm up bench is always 135 and depending how I feel I either stop at 185 or 225 on the last set, but could sometimes hit the one rep max at 255 without too much strain.

Body weight exercises are fairly easy for me, as this video should show with the one handed pushups, etc. I never see big guys doing this stuff in the gym, and I am not a world class athlete or anything.

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Old 11-27-2010, 02:25 AM   #20
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Default Re: Push-up Challenge

Just investigated a bit more and my first post about this was correct. if X is size then weight is proportional to X^3 obviously (height times width times depth), however muscle strength is a quadratic function of size (c)X^2 since strength is proportional to muscle area of a the crosssection, not volume or weight.

See wiki : [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle[/ame]

Quote:
The cross-sectional area of a muscle (rather than volume or length) determines the amount of force it can generate by defining the number of sarcomeres which can operate in parallel.
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Old 11-27-2010, 02:42 AM   #21
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Default Re: Push-up Challenge

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Originally Posted by repsaccer View Post
Just investigated a bit more and my first post about this was correct. if X is size then weight is proportional to X^3 obviously (height times width times depth), however muscle strength is a quadratic function of size (c)X^2 since strength is proportional to muscle area of a the crosssection, not volume or weight.

See wiki : [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
However, everyone has different neuromuscular efficiency so a small man and a large one can be of equal strength depending upon the efficiency of their muscles completely irregardless of the relative size of each man's muscular development (ie - a larger muscle does not necessitate a stronger one across disparate individuals due to individual neuromuscular attributes)
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Old 11-27-2010, 02:46 AM   #22
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Default Re: Push-up Challenge

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However, everyone has different neuromuscular efficiency so a small man and a large one can be of equal strength depending upon the efficiency of their muscles completely irregardless of the relative size of each man's muscular development (ie - a larger muscle does not necessitate a stronger one across disparate individuals due to individual neuromuscular attributes)
True but i stipulated the "all else being equal" in my posts didn't I?

Just to illustrate:

Quote:

WORLD RECORDS PUSHUP

non-stop: 10,507; Minoru Yoshida (JAP), Oct 1980 DETAILS
one year: 1,500,230; Paddy Doyle (GBR), Oct 1988 - Oct 1989
24 hours: 46,001; Charles Servizio (USA), 24/25 April 1993 at Hesperia
(new record claim, not yet verified: Jeffrey Warrick (USA), 46300)
1 hour: 3,877; Bijender Singh (IND), 20 Sept 1988 DETAILS AND NATIONAL RECORDS
30 minutes: 2,354; Rolf Heck (GER), 13 Nov 2000
10 minutes (women): 450; Alicia Weber (USA), 24 May 2009 in Clermont, Florida, USA
5 minutes: 441; Giuseppe Cusano (GBR), Loftus Road Soccer Stadium at the Fulham v. Portsmouth game on 24 Nov 2003
3 minutes (women): 190; Renata Hamplová (TCH), Record Festival Pelhrimov 1995
one minute: Record claims up to 199 in one minute have been made. We do, however, not continue to publish these record claims, because it became impossible to judge about the correctness of the exercises at this speed. The same applies for the category "100 push ups with legs on a 80 cm high table" where the last verified record were 45.7 seconds by Roy Berger (Canada), achieved on 24 February 2001 in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
one-armed, one week (168 hours): 16,723; Paddy Doyle (GBR), Feb 1996 in Birmingham
one-armed, 5 hours: 8,794; Paddy Doyle (GBR), 12 Feb 1996 in Birmingham
one-armed, 1 hour: 2521; Paddy Doyle (GBR), 12 Feb 1990 in Birmingham
one-armed, 30 minutes: 1382; Doug Pruden (CAN), 30 July 2003 at the Body Quest Health Club Edmonton
one-armed, 10 minutes: 546; Doug Pruden (CAN), 30 July 2003 at the Body Quest Health Club Edmonton
one-armed, 10 minutes (women): 131; Alicia Weber (USA) on 17 September 2010 Clermont, Florida
one-armed, on back of hands, one hour: 677; Doug Pruden (CAN) at the Body Quest Health Club Edmonton, 9 Nov 2005
one-handed handstand pushups: Yury Tikhonovich (Russia) did twelve pushups while standing on one hand in June 2006 at the Starclub variete in Kassel (Germany). He repeats this feat almost every day in the rehearsal for his show VIDEO (AVI, 1.3 MB)
on fists: 5557 (in 3:02:30 hours), Doug Pruden (CAN), 9 July 2004, Body Quest Health Club Edmonton
1000 pushups on fists: 18:13 minutes, Doug Pruden (CAN), 9 July 2003 at the Body Quest Health Club Edmonton
on back of hands, 15 minutes: 627; Paddy Doyle (GBR), 8 November 2007, Stamina's Boxing Self Defence Gym, Erdington, Birmingham RECORD HISTORY
on back of hands, 30 minutes: 1386; Paddy Doyle (GBR), 8 November 2007, Stamina's Boxing Self Defence Gym, Erdington, Birmingham RECORD HISTORY
on back of hands, 1 hour: 1940; Paddy Doyle (GBR), 8 November 2007, Stamina's Boxing Self Defence Gym, Erdington, Birmingham RECORD HISTORY
finger-tips, 5 hours: 8,200; Terry Cole (GBR), 11 May 1996 in Walthamstow
one finger: 124 Paul Lynch (GBR), 21 April 1992 in London
with a 50 lb [22.68 kg] plate weight on his back: 4,100: Paddy Doyle (GBR), 28 May 1987 in Birmingham
with hands on raw eggs: 112; Johann Schneider (AUT) / a video can be downloaded here as Quicktime video (1.2 MB) or AVI video (1.4 MB)
while balancing on three medicine balls (diameter: 24 cm), 1 minute: 61: Stephan Kristian (GBR) on 13 July 2008 at the Fitness First Health Club in Telford
while balancing on three medicine balls (diameter: 22 cm), 1 minute (women): 35; Alicia Weber (USA), 6 March 2010 in Clermont, Florida, USA
4 hr relay (team of 10): 14907; Gatwick Airport Fire Service (Andrew Horstead, Clwyd Jones, Stuart Coxhill, Steven Bartlett, Jerramy Davison, Darryl Graham, Albert Lawson, Luke Philpott, Darren Hollman, Ian Mclean, Great Britain) at 18 November 2005 at Gatwick Airport
Find the big guy

Of course i am jealous of your one arm pushup prowess aramini. I am one of those big guys. 6"3 and around 215 lbs atm. I've been doing pushups daily for the last 2 yrs alongside my swimming routine but i can never do one arm pushups easilly.
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Old 11-27-2010, 02:57 AM   #23
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Default Re: Push-up Challenge

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Originally Posted by repsaccer View Post
True but i stipulated the "all else being equal" in my posts didn't I?

Just to illustrate:



Find the big guy

Of course i am jealous of your one arm pushup prowess aramini. I am one of those big guys. 6"3 and around 215 lbs atm. I've been doing pushups daily for the last 2 yrs alongside my swimming routine but i can never do one arm pushups easilly.
Well, at that height its not the weight that is causing you the problem its the length of your arms. At over 6'3'' you are simply at a biomechanical advantage from the leverage point with much more distance to cover for every repetition, you have to do much more work for the motion to be considered a "complete" repetition. It just isn't a fair measure or standard when there are so many variables.

This is why bench press competitions favor extremely stocky and barrel chested guys with very short arms. There is just no distance for the weight to travel. (shorter than me, I am 5'8'', for the most part). If Thomas Hearns could bench press 300 lbs I would be much more impressed than say Mosley doing it. Everyone's build lends them a natural set of abilities, for example, the very little amount of weight I carry in my waist and thighs makes the pullup motion seem for the most part rather effortless, and even though I seem tall for the weight, there is a huge difference from my range of motion on a pull up and yours. however I guarantee you every swimming stroke you make is going to be much more efficient and effortless than mine, probably displacing more water and having a more propulsive effect.
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Old 11-27-2010, 03:03 AM   #24
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Default Re: Push-up Challenge

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Originally Posted by repsaccer View Post
A bigger man should be stronger than a smaller man, yes. However, strength and weight go up at a different pace. If size is X, then weight = X^3 (heightxlenghtxdepth=volume=weight..approximately). The force you can exert with your muscles is more like a X^2 or quadratic function. This means that with size, weight goes up quicker than strength.

This is why insects can fly and lift hundreds of times their body while we can not. Look at tour de france cyclists. They have to lift themselves over mountains.. the best climbers are always very lanky. You don't see bodybuilders on a bike or powerlift equivalents cuz power/endurance to weight ratio is not favorable.

You can see this also in weight lifting records. in the below 56 kg the combined world record is 305 kg. for the highest weight class, over 105 kg.. where you have men way over double 56 kg competing the world record is "only" 472 kg. So men way over twice as heavy only lift a tiny bit over 1.5 times the below 56 kg men.

In short, flyweights do pushups way easier than heavyweights.

or another way of looking at it is the heavier class in only 49kg heavier but can lift an extra 167kg. Thats pretty impressive when you think about it that way.
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Old 11-27-2010, 03:04 AM   #25
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Default Re: Push-up Challenge

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Well, at that height its not the weight that is causing you the problem its the length of your arms. At over 6'3'' you are simply at a biomechanical advantage from the leverage point with much more distance to cover for every repetition, you have to do much more work for the motion to be considered a "complete" repetition. It just isn't a fair measure or standard when there are so many variables.

This is why bench press competitions favor extremely stocky and barrel chested guys with very short arms. There is just no distance for the weight to travel. (shorter than me, I am 5'8'', for the most part). If Thomas Hearns could bench press 300 lbs I would be much more impressed than say Mosley doing it. Everyone's build lends them a natural set of abilities, for example, the very little amount of weight I carry in my waist and thighs makes the pullup motion seem for the most part rather effortless, and even though I seem tall for the weight, there is a huge difference from my range of motion on a pull up and yours. however I guarantee you every swimming stroke you make is going to be much more efficient and effortless than mine, probably displacing more water and having a more propulsive effect.
I appreciate your awareness of physics. And yeah I am aware of the mechanics. I do enjoy out-swimming everyone at my pool here even if I'm just an amateur. The average height of the male population here is about 6-9 inches shorter than i am, haha.
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Old 11-27-2010, 03:08 AM   #26
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or another way of looking at it is the heavier class in only 49kg heavier but can lift an extra 167kg. Thats pretty impressive when you think about it that way.
Yes it is, however their strength to weight ratio is less. The first 56 kg gives you a lot more bang for your buck than the next 49 ++. I'm not saying bigger guys are weaker. They obviously are stronger. Just not compared to their own bodyweight.
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Old 11-27-2010, 03:31 AM   #27
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Default Re: Push-up Challenge

I'm pretty sure its in Practical Programming that Rippetoe stated its common for lighter guys to be able to knock out 10 pushups/chins etc but common for heavier guys to struggle with 3.

Of course the lighter guys have a higher strength to weight ratio. Look at Olympic lifters.
This however, has no bearing on absolute strength, which is obviously higher in the heavier men.
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Old 11-27-2010, 05:06 AM   #28
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You guys are so smart
Will try the challenge tomorrow, after my soreness will go away.
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