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Old 11-27-2007, 06:35 PM   #241
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
They have better footwork, they are faster, more powerful, have a better ability to get their punches in, better jab, better fundamentals (keeping the hands up high), they know how to use their size advantage by tieing the opponent up close if the stylistic matchup requires this. Basically they do everything better. They have an extended and accomplished amature career.

Watch Wlad take out Austin (who was his own size) with a triple hook that sounded like a shotgun blast. Watch him stay off the ropes and out of Peter's range for 12 rounds while busting him up. Watch him not drop a single round against Byrd, a master boxer, who by the way is about as big as the vast majority of Willard/Carnera/Baer's opponents. Watch him hook off the jab like no other heavyweight his size has ever done with the exception of Lennox Lewis. See how he ties them up when they get in range to do their work. Don't kid yourself, no 190lbs fighter is gonna stop him from doing that. Watch Bowe's well-timed uppercuts on Holyfield. Yes, Bowe lacks in defense, but he's still lightyears ahead of Willard who seems to be boxing for the first time on every film that i see of him. Which can be understood if you know that he started boxing in his 30's and that he was 1 in 10000 with his size: can't expect much talent there.

Now i think Carnera is a big step up compared to Willard. Carnera was a solid boxer with a good jab. But he lacked power and doesn't come close to having the athletic talent, i.e. he does not nealy have their handspeed, coordination and you will never see him hooking off the jab.
I dont particularly disagree with any points you have made here.

The point that I will make is that none of the so called super heavyweights apart from Lewis have been what you could consider complete fighters technicaly.

Frankly if Carnera or B, Baer are 70% as good as they are then they would not have much chance against Joe Louis and would be even money against Jack Sharkey on a better day.
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:41 PM   #242
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Originally Posted by Mendoza
Farr only won 1 round of 15 on Donnavan's card, and Donnavan somehow had Louis up 10-4 vs Godoy. There's you’re proof. Do you think these are honest cards, OLD FOGEY? A reply here would be nice. Let’s go on what we both know here. Defend Donnavan’s judging for Louis if you will. I believe Donnavan was partial towards Louis, and was connected to Louis promoters.

It’s more how the fighters are described in papers than names.

My point was Dempsey kept his power in his mid 30's, and Charles fought toe to toe with Louis. Since Charles was certifiebly chinny, standing toe to toe with Dempsey in his mid 30's could have lead to him being knocked out. Poster John Garfield will confirm that Dempsey KO'd Galento in sparring.

Conn had a very low KO percentage, and some of that was from middle and light heavy fights. Without a doubt Brennan hit harder and had more of a puncher’s chance.

Conn Ko'd Knox, who was Ko'd 14 times, past his best and on a losing streak.

Conn Ko'd Barlund, who was Ko'd 10 times, and lost 3 of his last five. Clearly on a slide.

Conn Ko'd Dorazio, who was Ko'd 8 times, and was 2-3-1 in his last six matchs.

Notice a pattern here? It seems Conn Ko'd guys who were known to be KO losers, and caught them in a slump.

Brennan had more KO in total and much higher Ko, and no fights with middle weights. Brennan hit harder. That was my point.

In closing:

1. Donnvan was partial towards Louis as a judge, and cozy with his promoters. You may muddy the waters with the promtoers, but not the juding.

2. Demspey had plenty of KO's in exhibtion matches, did KO Galeto in sparring, and kept his power with him late. Demspey could have KO'd Chalres in his mid 30's. Key word being could have.

3. Brennan hit harder than Conn. I'm takling power here, not skills or a TKO by attrition.
1. Donovan--you are spinning a nasty conspiracy theory implying that the officials in Louis' fights were not honest and all you have as evidence is that you disagree with a couple of scorecards. You watch a film and disagree with a scorecard and accuse that official of bias. How do you know the man watching the film is not biased? Ringside officials might see punches lost on a film because of the angles. An old one-angle film is not the best way of judging a fight. In the Godoy fight, Donovan's card agreed with the other judge and the card of the New York Times. Was the Times in the tank also? You reprint a lot of Times' articles. Why don't you reprint their report on this fight? Your charges about collusion between the NYSAC, the promoters, and Louis are based on nothing more than off-the-wall conspiracy theory paranoia.

2. What Dempsey did or did not do to Galento in sparring is unimportant. He could not and did not make a comeback. Frankly, Dempsey accomplished enough in the ring to be judged on what he actually did, not on over-the-top speculations.

3. I have seen all 15 rounds of Charles and Louis. Charles certainly moves plenty on the film I watch.

4. All this info on Conn's opponents is useless. Conn wasn't that much of a puncher at heavyweight, but he did ko Pastor, Dorazio, and Barlund, and all were better than anyone Brennan ko'd. Brennan failed to ko Tom Cowler (15 Ko's by), Homer Smith (15 ko's by), Andre Anderson (16 ko's by in only 42 fights), and Bob Devere (5 ko's by in 47 fights). His best KO victims are probably Boer Rodel (13 ko'd by in 63 fights), Soldier Kearns (9 ko'd by in 56 fights) and Bondsman **** Rice (9 ko'd by in 32 fights). Brennan simply never knocked out a top man at all. Conn did.
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Old 11-29-2007, 08:20 PM   #243
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Default Re: Most overrated old-timer?

Originally Posted by Robbi
Ezzard Charles. I do rate him, but he's consistently rated too high as an all-time great "pound for pound" fighter IMO.
As a heavyweight Ezzard Charles was kind of overrated, but as a light heavyweight he was the greatest. My great grandfather boxed him in the amateurs and said at light heavy Charles was a brilliant combination of speed & power. I asked him if a Roy Jones could beat Charles. He said Ezzard would cut the ring off against Roy and beat him to a pulp. He said Ezzard's two fisted power was too lethal for Roy.
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