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View Poll Results: How many fighters would you pick to blow a peak Joe Frazier out early?
0 6 8.70%
1 14 20.29%
2 18 26.09%
3 13 18.84%
4 5 7.25%
5 6 8.70%
6 1 1.45%
7 0 0%
8 0 0%
9 or more 6 8.70%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-29-2007, 09:57 PM   #61
mr. magoo
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C. M. Clay II
So? Foreman beat him not only because of power, but also because or a long reach, imposing height and physical strength. Shavers was not physically stronger than frazier, he was not bigger than Frazier, and he did not have a huge reach advantage. Shavers cannot win here.
I've already said that I'd favor Frazier to win this one, and although, I have all the respect in the world for Joe, it's responses like yours that turn me against a lot of fighters,
Any guy who hits as hard as Earnie Shavers, ( and their aren't any others ) will always have a chance at knocking out another fighter, particulary if it's a guy who likes to get close and mix it up. Earnie had a vicious over hand right, which could touch down on Frazier, like the atom bomb on Hiroshima as he was coming in. You also said that one punch wouldn't do it? While this may be the case, he sure as hell could be staggered to the point of being open to further attack. Watch Shavers fight with Norton on Youtube. Although this wasn't a prime Norton, it'll give some insight as to what Shavers was capable of.

Oh, I almost forgot.......... .........

Last edited by mr. magoo; 06-29-2007 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 06-29-2007, 10:07 PM   #62
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Frazier gets no respect around here.
Prime for prime:

Frazier would beat: Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield, Ali, Patterson, Ingemar, Tunney
Frazier would lose to: Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Marciano, Louis, Dempsey

Dempsey & Marciano would win because Frazier had very poor vision in one eye so it took away his frequent use of the right hand. It helps to be two handed in a brawl.

Who would blow out Frazier? "Blow out" is a very strong expression IMO. I'd pick Foreman, Louis, and Liston to win brutally under 6 rounds. I'm not sure if I call that "blow out." Therefore, I'll gave Louis and Liston 1/2 credit and vote for 2.

You made a very good point about Frazier making the second fight competitive even though he was shot and I certainly believe that he wasn't the same as FOTC.
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Old 06-30-2007, 02:04 PM   #63
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Norton fought Ali in 1973, 1973, and 1976. Frazier fought Ali in 1971, 1974, and 1975. Essentially both Frazier and Norton fought the same Ali. If there is a difference, Ali had yet to under go his style from a boxer to a counter puncher / clincher when Frazier beat Ali in 1971. I beleive Norton damaged Ali more so than Frazier. After all Norton broke Ali jaw, and should have edged the series 2-1 vs perhaps the most accomplished heavy weight boxer of all time. Also, there is no doubt that Ali hurt Frazier more so than Norton. Ali had Frazier shaken up in round two of the second fight, and TKO's in the third fight.
A. Notice Ali's first fight with frazier was in '71 and the last was in '75, whereas Norton's first was in '73 and the last was in '76. Further, Ali was, on average, lighter and trimmer for his fights with Frazier. He was virtually shot after the third Frazier fight, which is when Norton had his arguable win in their third fight. And Norton was in his prime for all three Ali fights, while Frazier was over the hill for their two rematches.

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I do not recall seeing Quarry hurt Norton, but he did back Norton up on the ropes a few times. Quarry also had Frazier on the ropes a few times too.
Watch the first round of Quarry-Norton again. Norton certainly looks shaken to me, I think around the two-minute mark. Moreso than Frazier ever was.


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How can you say this? Both Norton and Frazier fought Ali, Quarry, Stander, and Foreman. Aside from the above reference fights, Norton fought better competition. Larry Holmes, Ernie Shavers, and Jimmy Young come to mind. I don't think you can debate that Frazier fought better competition. Norton's resume is better. Keep in mind Frazier had a better amateur career. Norton picked up boxing in the american armed forces, and turned professional at a relatively later age in his era.
You're missing the point here. Let me illustrate:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Here are all of Norton's fights against opponents who were ranked at the time:
Ali(three times)
Foreman
Quarry
Bobick
Zanon
Young
Holmes
Shavers
LeDoux
Cobb
Cooney
This adds up to 13 fights against ranked opponents in Norton's 50-fight career.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, here are all of Frazier's fights against opponents who were ranked at the time:
Bonavena(twice)
Machen
Chuvalo
Mathis
Ramos
Quarry(twice)
Ellis
Foster
Ali(three times)
Foreman(twice)
Bugner
That makes 16 fights against currently-ranked opponents in his 37-fight career.
-------------------------------------------------------------------43% of Frazier's total fights were against currently-ranked opposition, compared with only 26% of Norton's. What's more, after his first 11 fights, even Frazier's off-fights that weren't againts contenders were still against respected gatekeepers and never against walk-over opposition, unlike Norton, who was still fighting guys with records like 8-15-1, 7-6-1, and 9-20-2 when he had over two dozen fights. Norton may have had more fights than Frazier did, but Frazier fought more ranked opponents and a much, much higher concentrated quality of opposition.


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Norton first loss to Garcia was more stamina related than durability related.
Norton was decked in the first round of that match before eventually going down for the count in the eighth- was he already gassed out less than three minutes into the fight?

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I am impressed. You know Frazier well. To be honest I did not count all the knockdowns, but Frazier was down on his knees to journeyman Mike Bruce. So Frazier was down a grand total of 11 times.
I was under the impression that the Mike Bruce incident was a standing-eight count, not an actual knockdown. Can you offer evidence here?

Quote:
Norton was down 12 times. The point to consider is Norton fought more punchers, had more fights, and fought outside of his prime more often. In the grand context of things, Frazier only going down one less time is not as impressive.
See my above points with regards to the number and concentration of quality opponents these two fighters faced. Frazier fought the much tougher consistent level of opposition from a much earlier stage in his career and was knocked down less often.

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I have most of Frazier's fights on tape. He was buzzed a few times some less than famous fighters.
Yes, but Norton was actually decked by the likes of Aaron Eastling and Vic Brown and was knocked out by Jose Luis Garcia- this is certainly much, much worse than anything that happened to Frazier.

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Stander buckled Frazierís knees.
I also have this fight, and I disagree. At no stage did Stander buckle Frazier's knees, although he did manage to bull him around a little in the first couple rounds.

Quote:
Norton fought Stander and beat him more impressively than Frazier did.
Norton fought Stander four years and six losses later than(a past-peak) Frazier did.
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Old 06-30-2007, 02:13 PM   #64
Mohak
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

Blown out and beat arn't the same thing. Apart from Foreman for obvious reasons I can only see Liston blowing out Fraizer. Beat is another story. Fraizer's chin is solid.
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Old 06-30-2007, 08:13 PM   #65
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

Quote:
Marciano Frazier A. Notice Ali's first fight with frazier was in '71 and the last was in '75, whereas Norton's first was in '73 and the last was in '76. Further, Ali was, on average, lighter and trimmer for his fights with Frazier. He was virtually shot after the third Frazier fight, which is when Norton had his arguable win in their third fight. And Norton was in his prime for all three Ali fights, while Frazier was over the hill for their two rematches.
Too much hair splitting. Frazier caught Ali before he got his sea legs back in 1971. By the 1973 Ali learned how to clinch and control the action. I see you don't want to touch my point that Ali hurt Frazier more than Norton with a 3 meter pole.

Quote:
Watch the first round of Quarry-Norton again. Norton certainly looks shaken to me, I think around the two-minute mark. Moreso than Frazier ever was.
Norton had a way of covering up that made it look like he was hurt even if he wasn't. It was that crab like defense.

Quote:
You're missing the point here. Let me illustrate:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Here are all of Norton's fights against opponents who were ranked at the time:
Ali(three times)
Foreman
Quarry
Bobick
Zanon
Young
Holmes
Shavers
LeDoux
Cobb
Cooney
This adds up to 13 fights against ranked opponents in Norton's 50-fight career.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, here are all of Frazier's fights against opponents who were ranked at the time:
Bonavena(twice)
Machen
Chuvalo
Mathis
Ramos
Quarry(twice)
Ellis
Foster
Ali(three times)
Foreman(twice)
Bugner
That makes 16 fights against currently-ranked opponents in his 37-fight career.
This is a good point. To add a bit, Norton fought Garcia twice. Garcia was a ranked guy too. So it's 15 to 16 in favor of Frazier. But quality of opposition is best judged at the top tier, wouldn't you agree? My point is Larry Holmes was great, and Norton nearly beat him in his prime. I'll also take a prime Jimmy Young who beat Foreman, and Prime Shavers who destoryed Eillis and Norton over anyone Frazier beat outside of Ali. There no debate that Norton fought the better punchers. He also also fought often outside his prime. As I said before if Frazier mixed it with Holmes, Cooney, or Shavers when he was past it, he would be knocked out. I disagree that Frazier fought better fighters. I have a hunch we will not mee tin the middle here. Much of it depends on you view of how good Holmes was.

Quote:

Norton was decked in the first round of that match before eventually going down for the count in the eighth- was he already gassed out less than three minutes into the fight?
Yes, Norton was gassed. It wasn't his night.

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I was under the impression that the Mike Bruce incident was a standing-eight count, not an actual knockdown. Can you offer evidence here?
The Phildelpha Daily News said Bruce dropped Frazier to his knees, and the referee gave an 8 count. It also makes not of Bruce entering the ring with shoddy gym shoes with holes in it.

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See my above points with regards to the number and concentration of quality opponents these two fighters faced. Frazier fought the much tougher consistent level of opposition from a much earlier stage in his career and was knocked down less often.
Hardly. Holmes by himself tips the scales to Norton. If you add in Cooney, Shavers and Young, they are better than Chavalo, Machen and Ellis.

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Yes, but Norton was actually decked by the likes of Aaron Eastling and Vic Brown and was knocked out by Jose Luis Garcia- this is certainly much, much worse than anything that happened to Frazier.
See the Bruce fight. Norton had trouble vs punchers, but so did Frazier. Norton just happened to fight more punchers and had more total fights. The more you fight, the more chance you have for bad things to happen. Norton fought in far more fights, and did not enjoy Frazier's early backing either.

Quote:
I also have this fight, and I disagree. At no stage did Stander buckle Frazier's knees, although he did manage to bull him around a little in the first couple rounds.
He did buckle his knees. Frazier had his knees buckled a few times in other fights as well.

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Norton fought Stander four years and six losses later than(a past-peak) Frazier did.
Maybe so but Norton looked great vs Stander. Stander some moments vs Frazier.
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Old 07-01-2007, 05:27 AM   #66
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great post Marciano Frazier.

fraziers first performance against foreman was dismal. he was clearly fat and off his game. but whenever i watch it i am amazed by two things. the sheer volume and variety of accurate power punches foreman throws and the fact that frazier keeps getting up, usually at the count of 1-3.

there are few men who could give peak frazier a pasting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
A roll-call of the great heavyweights of history seldom fails to include Joe Frazier's name. Most boxing fans rank him in the top 10 of the last 120 years. However, many(perhaps most- let us see the result of this poll) seem to hold a very low opinion of him when it comes to his ability to even be competitive with a significant portion of the other top heavyweights of history.

It seems to be a sort of knee-jerk reaction, whenever a "Frazier-vs.-a-name-opponent-with-top-punching-power" subject comes up, to pop in with "Frazier would be crushed in the first five rounds." I've variously seen people declare that champions such as Dempsey, Louis, Liston, Tyson, Lewis, and even lesser fighters like David Tua and Wladimir Klitschko, would simply swamp Frazier and take him out early. It is also frequently argued, and often by these same people, that George Foreman would destroy Frazier in the first few rounds every time, to the extent that if they fought 10 times or more, the result would be the same in every single one.

Personally, this all seems very narrow to me. I scarcely see anyone argue that since, say, Ali could outbox Foreman and Liston, therefore any top boxer beats them. Perhaps if Liston hadn't beaten Machen and proven he could beat a top boxer, it would be a similar knee-jerk reaction to pick everyone from Tunney to Walcott to Young to Byrd to beat him, the way people do with Frazier and power-punchers.

I would also like to point out, as I've done many times before, that Frazier was significantly past his peak when he lost to Foreman; he was 202-207 in nearly all of his top performances, but 214 against Foreman, and this was not a gain made up of lean muscle. He had had only two fights in close to two years since the Ali, and both were unimpressive showings against mediocre opponents. Ken Norton, his sparring partner at the time, had told Yank Durham privately that Frazier had lost something since the Ali fight, and Durham had advised Frazier to retire. Frazier's attitude in his training camp before the Foreman fight was described by observers as being more akin to that of a millionaire directing a yacht cruise than a blood-sweat-and-tears warrior conducting a serious training camp the way it had been in the past. It is clearly evident from the facts and film that Frazier had lost ground both physically and mentally in the aftermath of the Ali fight.

Moreover, Frazier hadn't brought in any strategy different from the norm for the first Foreman fight; he was simply employing his usual barrel-in-and-break-him-up-close gameplan when he was annihilated that night. In the rematch, Frazier, now further deteriorated and nearly washed-up, brought a more well-thought-through and intelligent gameplan to the ring and was far more competitive- in fact, that fight was fairly close up until the fifth round.

Now, if we combined these two elements- having Frazier at his best and employing a more intelligent gameplan, I see no good reason to believe he wouldn't stand a respectable competitive chance. And Foreman, in my opinion and those of most fans, had an especially bad style for Frazier, far beyond his simply being a crushing hitter: Foreman was a very fast starter, he was exceptionally strong, allowing him to manhandle Frazier and force him into position, he had a huge array of devastating punches, and he was most formidable with underhanded hooks and uppercuts, which are more effective against Frazier's type of defense. With all this taken into account, I think this oft-seen train of thought- that if probably the most devastating puncher of all time, who has a very bad style for him, can demolish a declining Frazier, therefore an assortment of other hard-hitting fighters with far different styles and ability levels could do the same to a peak Frazier- comes across as a very strained and weak standpoint.
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Old 07-01-2007, 06:32 AM   #67
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Too much hair splitting. Frazier caught Ali before he got his sea legs back in 1971. By the 1973 Ali learned how to clinch and control the action. I see you don't want to touch my point that Ali hurt Frazier more than Norton with a 3 meter pole.
The '71 Ali was the closest thing to a peak Ali ever to be beaten. He looks impressive against Quarry, and although he had an awkward fight with Bonavena, he did close out very strongly. Moreover, as I said, Frazier's prime-past-prime status in his fights with Ali was more of a mirror image of Ali's, while Norton was a bit later than either man and was still in his prime for all three Ali fights(and Ali was semi-shot when Norton got to him for their own rubber match).
Ali-Frazier was a blood rivalry. These two men each viewed the other as his ultimate obstacle and defeating him as a central goal of his career. When they got in the ring together, it was a frenzied extravaganza and they put on some of the most intense action fights of all time. In other words, Ali was at his most focused, most determined and most aggressive when fighting Frazier. On the other hand, he viewed Norton more or less as just another opponent. Thus, the Ali Frazier fought, in addition to being collectively younger and fitter, was also a much more focused, sharper and hungrier fighter. Ali rocked Frazier more than he did Norton because Ali had a much higher punch output with far more intensity against Frazier than he did against Norton. If Ali had hit Norton as often and with as much conviction as he did Frazier, I expect he probably would've knocked him out.

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Norton had a way of covering up that made it look like he was hurt even if he wasn't. It was that crab like defense.
Either way, Quarry was noticeably declining by the time he got to Norton(note he was 10 pounds heavier than he had been for Frazier, looking pudgy and tiring early, and went into a two-year period of inactivity after this fight).


Quote:
This is a good point. To add a bit, Norton fought Garcia twice. Garcia was a ranked guy too. So it's 15 to 16 in favor of Frazier.
Notice I said "ranked at the time." Garcia was not currently ranked either time he fought Norton. He was ranked for a little while between their two fights in the '70-72 time period(mainly as a result of the win over Norton), but was just another journeyman going into their first fight and was washed-up by the time of their rematch.
If we were to change the standard slightly and include everyone these guys fought who was ever ranked, then Frazier would also have Doug Jones and Ellis a second time, increasing his count to 18.

Quote:
But quality of opposition is best judged at the top tier, wouldn't you agree?
I think it's best judged at a balance- for example, the best fighters George Foreman fought were undoubtedly better than the best ones Louis fought, but Foreman's record is littered with literally dozens of knockouts over set-up opponents and includes only a handful of fights against those few exceptionally good opponents, while Louis' best opponents weren't as good as Foreman's, but Louis had several times as many fights against ranked opponents and dominated the division far longer. It's the guys who fought both extremely good top-tier opposition and a great deal of high-level opponents who I count as having the best quality of opposition, and Frazier certainly has both of those.

Quote:
I'll also take a prime Jimmy Young who beat Foreman, and Prime Shavers who destoryed Eillis and Norton over anyone Frazier beat outside of Ali.
That wouldn't be very wise, since Quarry already annihilated Shavers in one round. And let us note that, although Young had recently beaten Foreman when he fought Norton, he would also go on shortly thereafter to lose back-to-back fights to Ossie Occasio. How's that for erratic?

Quote:
There no debate that Norton fought the better punchers.
I think you're putting too much emphasis on this. Frazier did have two fights with Foreman, while Norton only had one. Norton also fought Cooney and Shavers, meaning that Norton has three fights against big punchers compared with Frazier's two. And a semi-shot Frazier at least managed to go four competitive rounds with Foreman in their rematch, while a similarly-over-the-hill Norton was just plain blitzed by Shavers and Cooney.

Quote:
He also also fought often outside his prime.
I'm going to contest this. I consider Norton's prime to end with the Holmes fight. That gives him five fights while past it. Frazier's prime ended after the first Ali fight(note his 10-pound weight gain, inactivity, lack of his old sharpness or fire in most subsequent performances, etc.)

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As I said before if Frazier mixed it with Holmes, Cooney, or Shavers when he was past it, he would be knocked out.
When a past-it Frazier mixed it with Foreman, who was much more dangerous than either Shavers or Cooney in my opinion, he still managed to hold his own for four rounds. I'm not convinced he would lose to Cooney or Shavers, even while past his prime, and if he did, I highly doubt he would be polished off in one round the way Norton was.

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I disagree that Frazier fought better fighters. I have a hunch we will not mee tin the middle here. Much of it depends on you view of how good Holmes was.
Holmes is my #6 all time heavyweight, Foreman #3, and Ali #1. Thus, Frazier's second fight with Foreman at least cancels out Norton's with Holmes on the "whose-opposition-was-better" scale, and Frazier fought the better Ali(Ali was collectively younger and lighter, and was extremely focused, determined and sharp for his fights with his ultimate rival, Frazier, while he was pretty lackadaisical against Norton) and a considerably greater concentration of general contenders(and most of them twice, too), so Frazier gets my clear vote here.

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Yes, Norton was gassed. It wasn't his night.
No trained professional fighter of any standing becomes tired to the point of being floored in less than a round.

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The Phildelpha Daily News said Bruce dropped Frazier to his knees, and the referee gave an 8 count.
I bow to you on this point, then. However, getting back to the larger "knockdown-count-comparison" picture, I'd like to point out that the main reason it's close is that Frazier kept getting up to suffer six knockdowns in the first Foreman fight.
He actually showed considerably more durability than Norton, who was helplessly clutching at the ropes and unable to stand without them after the third knockdown- if Frazier would simply have stayed down or gotten up completely helpless after going down the third time, he would have saved another three knockdowns, and conversely, if Norton had been more durable and kept coming back until he'd gone down six times, the knockdown count would also appear more one-sided. Norton was rendered completely helpless and unable to stand after a relatively short beating and only three knockdowns, whereas Frazier was beaten monotonously from pillar to post and floored six times, but was still standing of his own power, albeit wobbly, even when the fight was stopped.

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Hardly. Holmes by himself tips the scales to Norton. If you add in Cooney, Shavers and Young, they are better than Chavalo, Machen and Ellis.
1. Again, Frazier's second fight with Foreman makes up for a lack of a fight with Holmes in my estimation.
2. Cooney, Shavers and Young were probably better than Chuvalo or the Machen Frazier fought, but I do not believe they were better than Quarry(who blasted Shavers out in a round) or Ellis(who, although he was bombed out by Shavers, did much better against Quarry and had a better run at the elite level than Shavers, who was only able to post the occasional surprise blow-out of a contender when his puncher's chance came into play. And Cooney was completely unproven- I don't see how you can reasonably rank him above the likes of a Quarry, Ellis, or Bonavena when he never beat a top 10 fighter who was anywhere near his prime.


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See the Bruce fight. Norton had trouble vs punchers, but so did Frazier. Norton just happened to fight more punchers and had more total fights. The more you fight, the more chance you have for bad things to happen. Norton fought in far more fights, and did not enjoy Frazier's early backing either.
The Bruce fight was Frazier's second pro fight when he was 21 years old. This is much different from being decked and even knocked out by journeymen when you're 27 or 28 years old with over a dozen fights under your belt like Norton was when he was knocked down by Eastling and Brown and out by Garcia. Norton, again, had one more fight against top-notch punchers than Frazier did, and in Frazier's two fights, he certainly did better than Norton did in his three.
And as to the "just-had-more-fights" thing, again, this is misleading. As I pointed out before, although Frazier had fewer fights, he had more against name opponents than Norton did. For another telling statistic, according to boxrec's records, 29 of Frazier's 37 fights were against opponents who had won at least two thirds of their fights, in comparison with only 28 of Norton's 50 fights.

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He did buckle his knees. Frazier had his knees buckled a few times in other fights as well.
I think you're reaching on this one. It is true that Frazier was wobbled from time to time, but I don't see it against Stander.

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Maybe so but Norton looked great vs Stander. Stander some moments vs Frazier.
Frazier was declining and 10 pounds overweight when he fought Stander. Stander had gone badly downhill, lost to some journeymen and bloated up to 229 pounds by the time he got to Norton. This creates quite a gap on the whole.
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Old 07-01-2007, 06:33 AM   #68
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

So, to give a general overview, the decisive points here are that Norton, while a fully-grown man and a reasonably experienced professional, was repeatedly floored by mediocre journeymen and actually knocked out by one, while Frazier, after his first dozen pro fights and the age of 22, was only ever down against George Foreman, despite facing a much tougher consistent stream of opposition than Norton did. And in the bigger picture of their overall standings as fighters, Frazier outstrips Norton by a pretty wide margin. To illustrate this last point, imagine if each of their respective careers was exactly the same as in real life, except without the fights against Ali; Norton becomes just another contender, a guy who padded his record with a lot of no-names and won and lost his share when he stepped up, whose main claim to fame is giving Holmes a close fight(which would be noteworthy, but not remarkable, since several other fairly ordinary contenders did also). On the other hand, Frazier would still have been the absolute dominant figure in the heavyweight division for a period of several years and have emphatically cleaned out a very solid crop of high-level opposition before Foreman came in and usurped him. Frazier would still be a lock for the top 25 of all time, while Norton would be lucky to make the top 50.
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Old 07-01-2007, 07:34 AM   #69
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

Great discussion here, i will add that Frazier always fought agressive and took the fight to Ali, which automatically leads to him taking more risk and punches so it's not a suprise that he was hurt more against Ali than Norton, even though he was never really that hurt in my opinion.
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Old 11-28-2007, 07:27 PM   #70
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

George Foreman got lucky when he fought Joe Frazier in 1973 and I strongly believe he would have had a much tougher time beating the Frazier from the Fight of the Century. In Jamaica, Frazier had no speed, no drive, no head movement and he was nearly ten pounds heavier than his prime weight of 205 lbs. Ali himself said that he had a hard time hitting Frazier cleanly in 1971 and that version of Frazier he fought would have knocked Foreman out. Remember, there's a reason why Foreman reneged on the immediate rematch clause against Frazier and chose to fight Roman and Norton instead. He knew that Frazier would come better prepared for a rematch and wanted to hold on to his title in fear of losing it, which he did to Ali. Frazier was the only guy Foreman ever admitted to being scared of. Watch the post fight interview at ringside with Foreman and Dunphy. He practically punched himself out as he was trying to catch his breath between sentences. If Frazier had made it out of the second round even in the condition he was, how much more could a tired Foreman do to him? I'll give Foreman major credit because he came to do the job and fought the perfect fight by keeping Frazier arms length. He was a great two time champion himself and probably the hardest right hand puncher in heavyweight history aside from Earnie Shavers. Some say Foreman had a little help from Mercante in 73 who was probably having an off night. Any other ref wouldn't have allowed Foreman to push off and shove instead of punching out of the clinches. Still, Joe Frazier gets no respect and it's primarily for this loss against George Foreman.
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Old 11-28-2007, 07:32 PM   #71
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

Lewis, Foreman, Liston and Louis. I accidently voted 3, but they are the 4 I would pick. That doesn't mean I think they would do it every time, but I think they would do it at least once in a series.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:21 AM   #72
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

For me Possibly Tyson, Foreman, Louis. others could do it, people with a reach, size advantage with good power. Klitschko's, lewis even someone like Bruno or Liston theoreticaly could that doesn't mean it's particularly likely.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:35 AM   #73
Nick Balsamo
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

I see 4 fighters who could end it fast most of times:


3 of them KTFO based on long reach and huge power:

George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Lennox Lewis

The 4th has the best blend of speed\power in history: Mike Tyson

Frazier is a slow starter with a sometimes vulnerable chin.

Tyson is a fast starter with tremendously flashing power and ferocity.

Make the equation: Tyson gets to Frazier early.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:40 AM   #74
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
So, to give a general overview, the decisive points here are that Norton, while a fully-grown man and a reasonably experienced professional, was repeatedly floored by mediocre journeymen and actually knocked out by one, while Frazier, after his first dozen pro fights and the age of 22, was only ever down against George Foreman, despite facing a much tougher consistent stream of opposition than Norton did. And in the bigger picture of their overall standings as fighters, Frazier outstrips Norton by a pretty wide margin. To illustrate this last point, imagine if each of their respective careers was exactly the same as in real life, except without the fights against Ali; Norton becomes just another contender, a guy who padded his record with a lot of no-names and won and lost his share when he stepped up, whose main claim to fame is giving Holmes a close fight(which would be noteworthy, but not remarkable, since several other fairly ordinary contenders did also). On the other hand, Frazier would still have been the absolute dominant figure in the heavyweight division for a period of several years and have emphatically cleaned out a very solid crop of high-level opposition before Foreman came in and usurped him. Frazier would still be a lock for the top 25 of all time, while Norton would be lucky to make the top 50.

I never thought much of Norton despite his success with Ali, he was Ko'd by every puncher he faced and when he got to Quarry, Jerry was completly done, Quarry himself said he was on Drink and Cocaine and a woman and did not train for Norton.Frazier had a short prime but a his peak he was a dangerous puncher and had a good workrate, hooking to the body and head, He only had one arm but it was enough to hit Ali with it plently and even though Ali knew it was coming could not avoid being hit by it. Frazier used to hurt and drop Ken frequently when Kenny was his sparring partner. Kenny was effective vs Ali but his losses to punchers bring him down. I think Ali was prime vs Frazier in the 1st fight, he was at his strongest, The Foreman fight was also up there but stategy had a lot to do with the outcome

Last edited by WhataRock; 10-12-2006 at 02:55 AM.
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:29 AM   #75
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Default Re: How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Balsamo
I see 4 fighters who could end it fast most of times:


3 of them KTFO based on long reach and huge power:

George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Lennox Lewis

The 4th has the best blend of speed\power in history: Mike Tyson

Frazier is a slow starter with a sometimes vulnerable chin.

Tyson is a fast starter with tremendously flashing power and ferocity.

Make the equation: Tyson gets to Frazier early.

Tony Tucker rocked Tyson like in the second round and kept Mike pretty carefull, boneclucher Smith did the same and held,Lennox kept him honest by making Mike feel jhis power early then going back to the jab and outside but if Tyson felt Joe's power early he may be a bit more carefull just charging in,Frazier had power, had a solid chin but it was there to be hit but you also had to taste Joes hook which could be a strong deterrent for reckless aggresion, the fight would not be a blowout, a shootout maby but not a blowout
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