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Old 12-07-2007, 05:19 AM   #61
janitor
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
"Marciano's defense is just not even in the same league."

Actually it is better.
While I agree that Marcianos defence is under rated I would hold Dempseys up as the gold standard of the swarming heavyweights.

If I had a young fighter of this style Dempsey is the guy I would want him to emulate defensivley. The man who called the bopb an "artistic duck".
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:22 AM   #62
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Here's how I'd score these:

Power: Tyson 9.5, Marciano 9.5, Dempsey 9, Frazier 8.5

Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Tyson 5.5, Dempsey 5, Frazier 5, Marciano 4

Hand and foot speed. Tyson 9, Dempsey 8.5, Frazier 8, Marciano 6

Boxing ability and versatility on OFFENSE ( Jab, hook , cross, body punch, uppercut, in-fight out fight, combinations, feints ) : Tyson 8.5, Dempsey 8.5, Marciano 8 (aside from his short reach causing him to pretty much relinquish long-range fighting, he's pretty much got the whole repertoire), Frazier 7 (not enough of a right hand to get higher)


Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hitů..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, footwork to get out of the way ) Dempsey 6.5, Tyson 6.5, Frazier 6, Marciano 5.5

Stamina: Marciano 10, Frazier 10, Dempsey 8.5, Tyson 7

Durability: Marciano 9, Tyson 9, Dempsey 8, Frazier 8

Heart and will to win: Marciano 10, Frazier 10, Dempsey 9, Tyson 5

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Marciano 9, Dempsey 8.5, Frazier 7.5, Tyson 6

Quality of opposition fought: Frazier 10, Tyson 8.5, Marciano 7.5, Dempsey 6.5 I take exception to this one- why is it quality of opposition fought instead of quality of opposition beaten? Because it doesn't really matter who you fought if you lost to them, and this list is largely turned on its head if you go by quality of opposition beaten instead of fought.

Intimidation ability and killer instinct: Tyson 9.5, Dempsey 9, Marciano 8, Frazier 7

Total score:

Frazier 87
Dempsey 86.5
Marciano 86.5
Tyson 84


But if we use a quality of opposition beaten standard instead of quality faced, as I suggested above and think would be fair, then it's:
Marciano 86.5
Frazier 86.5
Dempsey 85.5
Tyson 82
(Frazier, Dempsey and Tyson lose credit for having lost the majority of their fights against the best opposition they faced, while Marciano's score remains the same, since he beat everyone. Frazier's only drops a half-point because he did beat the very best opponent of his career, while Tyson and Dempsey both failed ever to post a win against the best opposition they faced- Tyson in particular never even coming close, and so they lose a full point and two points respectively relative to the "opposition faced" mark.
I think you have done a good analysis.... imo Frazier should score a little higher on killer instinct/intimidation, but still a good, fair analysis.
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:54 AM   #63
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
ya I agree. I mean Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Archie Moore... ya those guys are nothing special.
Joe Louis was done when Marciano fought him and everyone knows it (whether they're willing to admit it or not). I used to underrate Charles but now give him a lot more respect, Walcott I always thought was pretty good, but nothing extraordinary, and Moore... I just wasn't very impressed with when watching him.

Again, this is just my opinion. The only thing that really grinds my gears is when people declare an aging Joe Louis to be Marciano's best opposition. The rest of those I can see.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:44 PM   #64
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Joe Louis was still a pretty good fighter when they fought though, Louis was beating rank contenders, and was rank in the top 2 when he fought Marciano.

This was not like Ali Holmes, with no warm up fights. Louis was beating the rank contenders of the early 50's. Sure it was not a great Louis. But a GOOD Louis.
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