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Old 02-05-2011, 04:05 PM   #31
Il Duce
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

Pretty much the story goes like this.

Ingemar Johansson had been in Geneva, Switzerland for the better part of
January 1961.
He was not training or taking very good care of himself.
He did participate in several 2 and 3 round boxing exhibitions against some local
fighters, as well as with his home sparring partner Sweden Heavyweight, Thorner Ahsman.

He was living the life of a European Playboy.
He arrived in Miami Beach, on Friday, February 3, 1961.
At first glance, the guy was some-what bloated, and a good 20+ lbs.
over-weight, and not in anywhere the shape his management told Bill Fugazy Jr.,
the Feature Sports, Inc. fight promoter.

Last edited by Il Duce; 02-05-2011 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 02-05-2011, 04:16 PM   #32
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

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Originally Posted by Longhhorn71 View Post
If this sparring session was in 1960, early 1961, then Cassius Clay was just fighting 4 round fights.

Yes, he could dance around in an amateur type style, but Clay hadn't even fought Doug Jones yet......so Ingo would have laid him out in a real pro fight at any distance in rounds.
Yey but Ingo wasnt as smart or as good as Doug Jones and he telegraphed his shots more, something Clay would have taken advantage of... He hit harder than Jones and was the champion but that doesnt mean he would have been able to get to a young Cassius Clay.. I think even a young Clay whups him.

I believe i also read that Clay got the better of a prime slick Willie Pastrano when he was still an amatuer.
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Old 02-05-2011, 05:26 PM   #33
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

The sparring session was, primarily to get stock film footage for the local
TV affiliates, to help introduce Ingemar Johansson to the local area and
TV audience.

It was 'not', a 'hot' sparring/worjk-out session.

At that day and time, probably any of the Top 15 Heavyweights and/or
Light Heavyweights with any kind of speed, would have danced rings around
INGO.
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Old 02-05-2011, 05:38 PM   #34
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

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Originally Posted by anarci View Post
Yey but Ingo wasnt as smart or as good as Doug Jones and he telegraphed his shots more, something Clay would have taken advantage of... He hit harder than Jones and was the champion but that doesnt mean he would have been able to get to a young Cassius Clay.. I think even a young Clay whups him.

I believe i also read that Clay got the better of a prime slick Willie Pastrano when he was still an amatuer.
Johansson was better than Doug Jones. You want to see a telegraphed right hand, see Jones vs Harold Johnson. Johansson on the other hand shocked some top men with his right.
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Old 02-05-2011, 05:38 PM   #35
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

Ingo really fancied Ali, he said Ali was a good man and a hell of a talented boxer.

Ingo, during his commentating career, was very much a fan of Mike Tyson's aswell.
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Old 02-05-2011, 05:39 PM   #36
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

It is a tough life when you have spent too much time training on your lovely girlfriend Birgit, rather than the heavy bag and doing your roadwork.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
Pretty much the story goes like this.

Ingemar Johansson had been in Geneva, Switzerland for the better part of
January 1961.
He was not training or taking very good care of himself.
He did participate in several 2 and 3 round boxing exhibitions against some local
fighters, as well as with his home sparring partner Sweden Heavyweight, Thorner Ahsman.

He was living the life of a European Playboy.
He arrived in Miami Beach, on Friday, February 3, 1961.
At first glance, the guy was some-what bloated, and a good 20+ lbs.
over-weight, and not in anywhere the shape his management told Bill Fugazy Jr.,
the Feature Sports, Inc. fight promoter.
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Old 02-05-2011, 07:12 PM   #37
Il Duce
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

I think Brigit was much more fun,,,,,,,,AHHH Swedish Meatballs.
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Old 02-06-2011, 08:19 AM   #38
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

Am I the only one here who would actually give the 4-0 Clay a good chance of beating the Johsnsson and Patterson who fought in 1961 ?
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Old 02-06-2011, 08:23 AM   #39
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Am I the only one here who would actually give the 4-0 Clay a good chance of beating the Johsnsson and Patterson who fought in 1961 ?
Certainly not that Patterson. I think even a 15 rounder with Ingo around that time probably may have been too big an ask. Less sure about that one, though. Ingo's shape wasn't very good and even though he had more experience of going 15, Clay certainly had a body more up to the task.
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Old 02-06-2011, 08:45 AM   #40
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Am I the only one here who would actually give the 4-0 Clay a good chance of beating the Johsnsson and Patterson who fought in 1961 ?
MR. UN,,,

Don't forget, Mr. Clay was not impressive in going 6-Rounds with one Donnie Fleeman just 3-weeks later.

Looking back, Cassius may have won a 6-Rounder, but the sparring session was with pillow-gloves, head-gear and heavy protective gear.
And an out-of-shape INGO.
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Old 02-06-2011, 08:51 AM   #41
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
Certainly not that Patterson. I think even a 15 rounder with Ingo around that time probably may have been too big an ask. Less sure about that one, though. Ingo's shape wasn't very good and even though he had more experience of going 15, Clay certainly had a body more up to the task.
I think Johansson would have run out of gas after 5 or 6 rounds of trying to land a KO punch on young Clay.
Clay was training hard to go 8 or 10 fast rounds at least at that time.

I'm not sure about Patterson. I'd still give Clay a good chance. He was only 19 years old and 190 pounds but he would have certainly been one of the trickiest and toughest opponents Floyd had faced as champion.

Clay would have schooled Tom McNeeley, the other man to fight for the heavyweight title that yesr, in 1961, I believe.
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Old 02-06-2011, 09:03 AM   #42
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I think Johansson would have run out of gas after 5 or 6 rounds of trying to land a KO punch on young Clay.
Clay was training hard to go 8 or 10 fast rounds at least at that time.

I'm not sure about Patterson. I'd still give Clay a good chance. He was only 19 years old and 190 pounds but he would have certainly been one of the trickiest and toughest opponents Floyd had faced as champion.

Clay would have schooled Tom McNeeley, the other man to fight for the heavyweight title that yesr, in 1961, I believe.

In INGO's next '2' bouts after the Patterson III Fight.
He was floored in the first round by;
Wim Snoek,,,,,,,(Who the F***)
Joe Bygraves,,,,(Old man)

Tom McNeeley,,,,,Forgot about him,,a World Title Challenger
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Old 02-06-2011, 09:17 AM   #43
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I think Johansson would have run out of gas after 5 or 6 rounds of trying to land a KO punch on young Clay.
Clay was training hard to go 8 or 10 fast rounds at least at that time.

I'm not sure about Patterson. I'd still give Clay a good chance. He was only 19 years old and 190 pounds but he would have certainly been one of the trickiest and toughest opponents Floyd had faced as champion.

Clay would have schooled Tom McNeeley, the other man to fight for the heavyweight title that yesr, in 1961, I believe.
This all seems pretty reasonable. I think Floyd would win, but he could well be taken to the limit. Ingo was declining fast around this time, though. Just as you point out.
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Old 02-06-2011, 12:00 PM   #44
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Am I the only one here who would actually give the 4-0 Clay a good chance of beating the Johsnsson and Patterson who fought in 1961 ?
Ingo maybe, but Patterson? I would say highly unlikely.


Pattersons incredible hand speed was trouble for Ali in their two matches.

I cant imagine how a very green Ali would have won, let alone survived, with Patterson at that time.


If I really had to make a proper prediction I would say Patterson defeats Ali in a decisive unanimous 15 round decision with Ali having been felled 3 times, yet miraculously showing enough heart and courage to stick it out till the end.
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Old 02-06-2011, 12:01 PM   #45
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Default Re: INGO vs. Cassius Clay (Sparring session, Fake or ?)

A 190 pound Ali certainly wouldn't present the physical difficulties that a 210 pound Ali did for Patterson.
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