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Old 11-27-2007, 06:02 PM   #31
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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Originally Posted by dpw417
It needs to be ugly...I did hear Joe Cortez is the referee howevr. He refereed Hatton's last fight. Maybe, Hatton gets to fight his kind of fight.
See, I don't know if Floyd can even be roughoused by a guy who is easy ish to hit. I think Mayweather has the power. But then Hatton did walk through some horrible stuff against Kostya...
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:22 PM   #32
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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See, I don't know if Floyd can even be roughoused by a guy who is easy ish to hit. I think Mayweather has the power. But then Hatton did walk through some horrible stuff against Kostya...
I don't feel Hatton will have any trouble with PBF's power exactly...PBF is too defensively oriented to sustain an offense to bother Hatton...The more I think about it, I'm thinking Hatton will force PBF to react more than he has in recent fights..if PBF does react more it increases the punching opportunities for Hatton. Kind of similar to Duran/Leonard 1
Hatton definitely needs to wrestle to win. Maybe close to what they did back in the old, old days? Ketchel, Greb et.al.
I hope anyway.
I'm betting everything I own on this fight...haha
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:32 PM   #33
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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Originally Posted by dpw417
I don't feel Hatton will have any trouble with PBF's power exactly...PBF is too defensively oriented to sustain an offense to bother Hatton...
Yeah, I quite agree, but what we know is that Hatton is going to get hit on the way in, the same as Oscar was. Oscar was bothered by Floyd's power, and he was a 154 fighter at that time...Hatton is a 140 up at 147, it discourages the opponent. Hatton has a whole lot of heart, but he is human. If you are moving forward, missing and being hit, it affects strategy and its execution...the more I think about it, the more I think this is where the fight will be decided, assuming Hatton isn't entirely outclassed (I am at this time).

It's possible. Hatton certainly hasn't been shown to be lacking in this department. Maybe there is real hope there.
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Old 11-27-2007, 07:00 PM   #34
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

Mr Rosenfeld.
In August of 1938, Burley decisioned Cocca Kid in 15 rounds to win the 'Coloured' welterweight championship...Was this the apex of Burley's career?
How would you assess Burley's welterweight versus middleweight careers?
For the sake of discussion....What IF Henry Armstrong defended against Burley in August of 1938? This has always been one of my favorite match-ups to ponder. Would the aggression, of one of boxing history's legends possibly be blunted by Burley's slick defensive tactics? Could Armstrong force Burley to fight out of character?
Fascinating stuff. I would enjoy your opinion
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:11 PM   #35
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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Originally Posted by allenrosenfeld
To my fellow members of the East Side Boxing Forum:
My nephew has called my attention to your rrecent discussion of Charley Burley, and your including my writing on this formidable guy as part of the discussion. I will continue to mix in this conversation. My opinion of his greatness continues to be formed. Guys like Hagler and particularly Leonard and Gavilan would have been worthy opponents. I will enjoy the interface with such knowledge guys. Pardon my ramblings. Its late this eveninhg.

Best wishes, Allen Rosenfeld
Welcome to the board, you're knowledge of Burley and others will be greatly appreciated and i am sure McGrain will show you around and help if needed. He's a huge Burley fan and will be eager to pick your knowledge.

I've not read your book, but apon perusing Amazon i see you give accounts of many many fights. What an extraordinary experience it would have been to witness him vs such figures as Moore, Charles and Williams to name just a few.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:35 PM   #36
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

[quote=dpw417]Mr Rosenfeld.
In August of 1938, Burley decisioned Cocca Kid in 15 rounds to win the 'Coloured' welterweight championship...Was this the apex of Burley's career?
How would you assess Burley's welterweight versus middleweight careers?
For the sake of discussion....What IF Henry Armstrong defended against Burley in August of 1938? This has always been one of my favorite match-ups to ponder. Would the aggression, of one of boxing history's legends possibly be blunted by Burley's slick defensive tactics? Could Armstrong force Burley to fight out of character?
Fascinating stuff. I would enjoy your opinion[/quote.

Gentlepersons of the East Side Forum:

I'm pleased that you are interested in matchups involving Charley Burley. He would I am sure be competive with all of the great fighters in history close to his wieght.

The one film in existence of Burley in action is very choppy, but it does show him in his prime. It is the second of his fights with Billy Smith. The film is available for purchase from any of several dealers. You'd find it very informative.

To me Burley is very unorthodox, which adds to his effectiveness. And he is an extremely complete fighter, with no major weaknesses. Besides boxing skill and power, he is brave and takes as good a punch as Robinson, or Ali.

As to a matchup with Henry Armstrong, Burley wanted that match very badly. At the time , he would have beaten Armstrong. Henry was nearing the end, and Burley was just near his peak.

Henry was a much greater fighter than Burley pound for pound. But he was really a division smaller than the Pittsburgher. At the time Burley was his leading contender. And Henry was no longer physically strong enough to push him around.

In my judgment, Burley would have laid back and simply boxed his way to a clear cut decision.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:42 PM   #37
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Welcome to the board, you're knowledge of Burley and others will be greatly appreciated and i am sure McGrain will show you around and help if needed. He's a huge Burley fan and will be eager to pick your knowledge.

I've not read your book, but apon perusing Amazon i see you give accounts of many many fights. What an extraordinary experience it would have been to witness him vs such figures as Moore, Charles and Williams to name just a few.
Sir:

My son in law is Australian. I'm pleased to correspond with you. And I will be delighted to discuss with you the many fascinating ringmen of that time. Lets not forget such little known gems as Holman Wiliams, Eddie Booker, Bert Lytell, Freddie Dawson and Bernard Docusen.
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Old 12-08-2007, 04:18 AM   #38
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

W.w.c.b.d.
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:24 AM   #39
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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Originally Posted by allenrosenfeld
Sir:

My son in law is Australian. I'm pleased to correspond with you. And I will be delighted to discuss with you the many fascinating ringmen of that time. Lets not forget such little known gems as Holman Wiliams, Eddie Booker, Bert Lytell, Freddie Dawson and Bernard Docusen.
I'll be more than pleased to hear it too. First up i am very interested in the Burley - Charles fights.
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:15 AM   #40
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

Mr Rosenfeld,
I am interested in the Burley/Charles fights as well...
Also, Bernard Docusen...I've heard that he gave an excellent account of himself against Robinson, in the later's title defense.
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Old 12-09-2007, 05:49 PM   #41
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Unlike Burley, Roy was throwing a lot of combinations, instead of one, or, rarely, two punches at a time. I feel Charley needed to use straight punches more too, as with his hooks and swings it was difficult to get past Smith's block, straight lefts or rights between the gloves would be more effective. What I found strange, and what I feel could have been used against Burley, was the way he slightly jumped up when he was throwing range finding jabs, getting himself off balance, in my opinion.
Senya, I must say that your knowledge of and scrutiny of these old time fighters, as well as the modern ones is impressive. Your observation of Burley's habit of jumping up while jabbing is something a sharp scout or trainer of a rival fighter would capitalize on, in a similar way that Max Schmeling noticed flaws in Joe Louis' style before he upset the Brown Bomber.
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Old 12-09-2007, 06:04 PM   #42
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

Mr. Rosenfeld.
I would like to discuss what you think Burley might have accomplished in his era without his management difficulties...As if he were 'living in a perfect world' so to speak...What do you think he could have done?
Have you also ever considered what Charley Burley would been able to accomplish in today's boxing era...Facing the best of today from welter to light heavy?
I know the question may be farfetched, but I'm interested in your opinion(s)...I know that Burley may not have been the same fighter that he was in his own era. Burley was a fighter for his time...and I'd imagine his life experiences made him the fighter he became...The same could problably be said for Ray Robinson, being brought up in a segregated America at the time, made him a very hard and desperate man to contend with in the ring. Therefore, driving him to be sucessful,and a great fighter.
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:00 PM   #43
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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Originally Posted by dpw417 View Post
Against:

Gavilan at welterweight?

Sugar Ray Leonard at welter?

Mike McCallum at junior middle?

Hagler at middle?

and lastly...

Rodrigo Valdez at middle?

Just curious. I know I'll get at least one answer (McGrain). I'm a Burley apologist as well....But an even bigger Robinson apologist.
Burley could beat Gavilan, about 50/50 though.
Leonard would edge Charlie
Burley and McCallum, 50/50, though I'd favor McCallum.
Marvin would beat Charlie.
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:41 PM   #44
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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Burley could beat Gavilan, about 50/50 though.
Leonard would edge Charlie
Burley and McCallum, 50/50, though I'd favor McCallum.
Marvin would beat Charlie.
though these kind of conclusions are valid and reasonably 'possible' outcomes, for me I can't shoot straight in with such certainty, and for 2 main reasons.

1) the time & period - the Single Greatest Period in Boxing History...
2) Burley fought Bigger Top men and is therefore proven at middleweight and beyond.

these two points alone have got to place Burley and his kind as "Starting Favorites" against 'most' all their middleweight peers, though not necessarily guaranteing victory, but certainly strong favorites to win!
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:53 PM   #45
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Default Re: What would Charley Burley do....

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I'll be intersted to hear what Mr.Rosenfeld has to say about that too. For my own self, I remember a story where Futch introduced Holmes to Burley quite pointedly as "the best fighter ever to come out of Pittsburgh.

Don't forget Zivic, though, when you talk about Pittsburgh fighters.
Don't forget Yarosz who probably should have won the series with Conn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allenrosenfeld View Post
Thanks for your confidence in my knowledge of this subject. Burley, in my judgment , and the equally expert view of my nephew Brian Schiff, would have little if any chance against Harry Greb. We feel Greb was arguably the greatest prize fighter of all time.

However the Conn would have been in doubt according to eyewitnesses at the time. Johnny Ray, Conn's trainer, seems to have feared Burley--while of course his fighter feared no one. In our book we document the fact that a very irritated Johnny Ray would threaten expulsion from his gym to anyone who even mentioned Charley Burley's name.

Charley would have fought too cautiously against Harry--a lot of clutching. He would not have done as well as Kid Norfolk or Tiger Flowers.

Billy Soose was a clone of Billy Conn. Conn was way better. Burley beat Soose rather easily. Burley vs. Conn would have been in the laps of the officials. That being the case, Conn wins a unanimous decision in Pittsburgh from 1937 until the advent of television. Both of them proved to be better than Fritzie Zivic. And that's saying a lot.
True but it was Soose's 11th pro fight, granted he did KO Risko in his 9th though.
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