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Old 02-18-2011, 04:58 PM   #16
Il Duce
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Sonny did beat many ranked guys.

Larry did beat many undefeated fighters.

Lennox should have been undefeated.

Big George did blow 'two' winnable fights in his early days.

'Smokin Joe' lost the title in a bad way.
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Old 02-18-2011, 05:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by willcross View Post
I came up with this idea for a thread, can't remember seeing it here, but you know what they say, There's nothing new under the sun.

Everyone knows heavyweight top ten lists are subjective. So instead of trying to come up with a single list. What's the highest you could justify ranking the following fighters? I'll skip the obvious Joe Louis and Ali since they are usually 1 and 2 in whatever order you please.
Making the most generous assesments of the fighters, I could argue the following without resorting to slight of hand:

Sonny Liston-3

Larry Holmes-3

George Foreman-3

Jack Dempsey-3

Mike Tyson-3

Wlad Klitchsko-8

Vitali Klitchsko-15

Lennox Lewis-3

Joe Frazier-5

Rocky Marciano-3

Evander Holyfield-4

Gene Tunney-12

Obviously not all at once.

Last edited by janitor; 02-18-2011 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 02-18-2011, 05:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

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Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
Sonny did beat many ranked guys.

.
That he did, but For the title he fought but 2 guys. In title fights Liston was 2-1 in fights lasting one round aside from the 6 round quit job in miami.
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Old 02-18-2011, 05:43 PM   #19
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

very good idea for a thread! i often ask myself this same question when reading people's top ten lists...

that said, only a few of the responses have actually answered the question. it's about how high you could possibly rank a heavyweight if you were to skew all the criteria to their benefit. some of these lists are just tweaked versions of people's real top tens! anyway, the ones you mentioned...

Sonny Liston - 3

Larry Holmes - 2/3 (see below)

George Foreman - 3

Jack Dempsey - 4

Mike Tyson - 3

Wlad Klitchsko - if he retired tomorrow, 8

Vitali Klitchsko - if he retired tomorrow, 11

Lennox Lewis - 2/3 (see below)

Joe Frazier - 4

Rocky Marciano - 2

Evander Holyfield - 4

Gene Tunney - 11

i guess the idea is that all the ones who could stake a claim to number three have a unique aspect to their resumes. the number fours, as far as i can see, have issues that are less easily argued away. marciano could climb to two if you emphasise the unbeaten record. lewis and holmes could reach number two if you emphasise the range of styles they could combat head to head (if we're talking about achievements alone, they'd only reach three). the klitschkos and tunney are in a class below the others...
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Old 02-18-2011, 08:32 PM   #20
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
So, you say "everything Dempsey does, I can think of someone that does it better".B.S.,with all due respect.Who for example can destroy a Jess Willard
,NEVER FLOORED before,quicker or better,than Dempsey.?Who would pulverize a bull like Firpo more impressively than Dempsey did in the second round ,
with 2 vicious inclose blows,too fast for the camera to pick up ? Who ? Who
scored TWENTY FIVE or more first round kos ?Who do you know was a rougher, tougher infighter at heavyweight.? What heavyweight in his PRIME
was considered as fast in his movements as a Welterweight,than Dempsey ?
You have a right in your opinions, and i have a right to challenge some of your assumptions..
Your idol Ali,had many flaws in his arsenal. MANY things he did others did MUCH better, but we must take the overall package Ali,and other top heavyweights had in totality, to rate them. Not to single out a Dempsey that his contemporaries,who saw him at his prime and raved about.
One last point- No fighter in history was better in every aspect of boxing skills
than your criteria of Dempsey. Cheers...
My hero Ali? I have 75 posts here in 5 years of watching this board, a joe louis avatar, and specifically excluded Ali from my list? Not sure where you got that I'm a big Ali fan?

But this is exactly the kind of post I was looking for. Just trying to get different opinions. So how highly do you rate Dempsey in your list?
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Old 02-18-2011, 08:56 PM   #21
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
That he did, but For the title he fought but 2 guys. In title fights Liston was 2-1 in fights lasting one round aside from the 6 round quit job in miami.
But it should be noted, Sonny was the best heavyweight from
late-1958 thru February 1964.

A good 5-year run.

Plus, with the marginal Tax-Rate Laws, having multiple fights in one-year
earned you no extra money.
The laws were changed for 1965.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:48 PM   #22
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by willcross View Post
My hero Ali? I have 75 posts here in 5 years of watching this board, a joe louis avatar, and specifically excluded Ali from my list? Not sure where you got that I'm a big Ali fan?

But this is exactly the kind of post I was looking for. Just trying to get different opinions. So how highly do you rate Dempsey in your list?
WC. I have expressed my opinions, for what it's worth,many times. My money ,is on two heavyweights in their primes ,who i rate as the greatest of alltime,HEAD to HEAD.And that is the Dempsey of Toledo,[1919-1923], of whom we today have no film of ,except Willard,and this Dempsey was voted by a large majority of knowledge.able boxing people in 1950,as the best fighter from 1900 to 1950. I trust their opinions. And of course the young prime Joe Louis,who slaughtered Max Baer/Max Schmeling 2. Both had
tremendous handspeed combined with crushing power, not burdened by massive weight-lifting muscles that today's heavyweight's have.I see both Dempsey and Louis getting to their targets faster than a Liston,Forman
would.Both were VERY powerful for their weight, and had great success
against bigger and slower men. They are my two choices...I truly believe that the Dempsey of Toledo,and the Joe Louis of the Max Baer fight would beat
any version of Clay/Ali. I saw Ali/Frazier ,1971@ MSG. Great fight ,but Louis
would have flattened Ali,if he hurt him,and hurt him he would...watch film of
Louis against Baer,again.The power, leverage,and BLURRING combinations were surreal that night. There will never be a Joe Louis again. Good show....
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Old 02-19-2011, 08:19 AM   #23
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Sonny Liston....................6

Larry Holmes.................3

George Foreman....................3

Jack Dempsey...................not top 10

Mike Tyson..................8

Wlad Klitchsko..............don't know

Vitali Klitchsko...................ditto

Lennox Lewis...........................1

Joe Frazier..........................8 or 9

Rocky Marciano......................not top 10

Evander Holyfield...................10

Gene Tunney.....................not top 10
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:26 AM   #24
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Depends if you include H2H, or only resume.

Are you guys including H2H? I generally ignore H2H when it comes to "Greatness" ranking.
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Old 02-19-2011, 11:30 AM   #25
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Sonny Liston....top 10 but it may be stretching it..too many others that did not quit

Larry Holmes.....bottom end of the top 10, simply did not fight the best of his era or rematch hard fights.

George Foreman...career 1, bottom end of top 10,2nd outside of top 10-combined-middle of top 10..like # 6

Jack Dempsey..There was no fighter even close to Dempsey in the 20's, I can see him being rated 1-to 7 but should not be lower...Dempsey was the best until Louis...period

Mike Tyson I can see Tyson being on the bottom End of top 10, he proved top power but fizzled and could be a large factor

Wlad Klitchsko...Its not over till the FAT lady sings...who knows how it will end for him or if he is in his prime just now...time will tell

Vitali Klitchsko..see above

Lennox Lewis..Great early arsenal and combo or size talent, I can see 4-to 10 depending how harsh you judge him for his 2 one-punch KO losses

Joe Frazier-Short Career-peaked in his 27th fight, never to see that form or condition again but for the FOTC anywhere from 5- to 10

Rocky Marciano anywhere from 1 to 4 He may have always beaten Ali and Louis at their best because of style but not as long of a resume, also his style did not welcome longevity but his snap shot is impeccable.

Evander Holyfield 8-12 great fighter and Tyson wins give him a large boast

Gene Tunney..Lower end of top 10 to 12...great boxer ahead of his time, short heavyweight career but win over Greb and Dempsey give him a large boast
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Old 02-19-2011, 11:37 AM   #26
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

I do not believe in head to head it would be impossible to merge the eras without taking away the hardness of the times and 15 round conditioning of the past or the enhancing product and poor stamina but size of the present. There is no such thing as a time machine without adding and subtracting the natural plus + minuses that came with the particular decade...There is no such thing as simple time travel in Boxing analysis
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:07 PM   #27
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Duce View Post
But it should be noted, Sonny was the best heavyweight from
late-1958 thru February 1964.

A good 5-year run.

.
It wasnt really because ingo beat machen in one round in 1959 before liston and that blew listons points win out of the water. Until Liston fought for the title the title was tied up between a guy who beat machen quicker than he could and another guy tied to rematches he had not fought yet.

I think Listons "run" was more like 1959- 1960. wiliams, folly, harris and machen were at least winning fights when liston fought them, though all had been knocked out before.

ben wise, daniels, ernie cabb, mederos, whitehurst, bethea, valdez, besmanoff, howard king and wesphal were losing fights at the time Liston squashed them, each lost their previous fight coming in against liston. Even dejohn had lost 2 of his last 4 fights.

1961 liston did not fight a rated guy. Then he went 2-2 in title fights (3 in one round) up until 1965. I rate sonny where he deserves to be, outside the top ten.

Last edited by choklab; 02-19-2011 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:26 PM   #28
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Sonny Liston - 7 is the highest. I rank him at 16.

Larry Holmes - Number 3. I rank him at 5.

George Foreman - 7. I rank him at 12.

Jack Dempsey - I just canīt see him in the Top10 but 12 I think. I have him at 20 - sorry Burt.

Mike Tyson - As high as 7, thatīs where I have him too.

Wlad Klitchsko - Well, I have him at 13 and I donīt think you can rank him higher. That maybe too high even but given my criteria ... thatīs where he ended up.

Vitali Klitchsko - I have him at 23 and think thatīs too high.

Lennox Lewis - 4. I have him at 6.

Joe Frazier - 7. I have him at 10.

Rocky Marciano - 3. I have him at 4.

Evander Holyfield - 7. I have him at 9.

Gene Tunney - puh, same as with Dempsey, their resumes just donīt live up to their status and hype. I have him at 29. Canīt see him making the Top20
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Old 02-19-2011, 03:56 PM   #29
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Default Re: What's the highest you can honestly rate these heavyweights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhi View Post
Sonny Liston - 7 is the highest. I rank him at 16.

Larry Holmes - Number 3. I rank him at 5.

George Foreman - 7. I rank him at 12.

Jack Dempsey - I just canīt see him in the Top10 but 12 I think. I have him at 20 - sorry Burt.

Mike Tyson - As high as 7, thatīs where I have him too.

Wlad Klitchsko - Well, I have him at 13 and I donīt think you can rank him higher. That maybe too high even but given my criteria ... thatīs where he ended up.

Vitali Klitchsko - I have him at 23 and think thatīs too high.

Lennox Lewis - 4. I have him at 6.

Joe Frazier - 7. I have him at 10.

Rocky Marciano - 3. I have him at 4.

Evander Holyfield - 7. I have him at 9.

Gene Tunney - puh, same as with Dempsey, their resumes just donīt live up to their status and hype. I have him at 29. Canīt see him making the Top20

thats prety fair, I rate dempsey high and wont rate either Klit just yet but otherwise good calls.
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