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Old 12-13-2007, 01:43 AM   #1
Boilermaker
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Default where do Light Heavyweight Champions rank?

when the old vs new argument raises its head, the argument of size is always raised. Wins against light heavys by old timers are nearly always written off because of size by many posters. The rationale, is that Small heavys cannot beat larger heavys, particularly the modern Super heavys.

But when you realy get down and think about it, there are not that many examples of Light heavyweight champions who have fought and lost to Super heavys. I was wondering if anyone can think of times where light heavy champs have lost to heavyweight fighters outside the top 5 or so fighters in the world.

The obvious examples like Tunney and Charles have all been able to climb to no 1. But what about the likes of Archie Moore, Bob Foster, who have always been seen as examples of Light heavys who couldnt take a punch. But looking at boxrec, he had losses to Frazier, Ali, Foley and Terrell, all of whom were top 5 fighters at the time he fought them. He was untroubled by every other figther he fought over 200lb. Moore Lost to Patterson and Marciano, but pretty much had no trouble with anyone else over 200lb. But maybe heavys were still small at this stage, so what about more recently, Michael Spinks. He was KOd by Mike Tyson, but pretty much nobody else troubled him, and he fought some big fighters. Roy Jones Jr fought and beat Ruiz much easier than he beat the smaller Antonio tarver in his next fight and struggled more against light heavys than he did against Ruiz, who was at the worst, a top 10 heavyweight. Toney (when he was close to light heavy condition) had no trouble with the larger fighters he fought and it wasnt until he "filled out" into a heavyweight body that he started to lose to heavys and even then, in Rahman and Peter they were competive fights against top 10 fighters. Moorer won a world title, and never loses to non top 10 fighters although it has been a long time since you could say that he was close to the light heavyweight version of himself. There are countless examples of light heavys beating heavys.

My question is what examples, if any, are there of light heavyweight champions losing to fighters outside of the top 10 in the heavyweight division? And with this being the case, where would you expect (at any given time in any given year) the best light heavyweight in the world to rank if he were to pursue the heavyweight crown. Consequently, if you decide that it is about 5 or 10, can the old time fighters really be criticised for fighting so many smaller fighters, or should the modern fighters be criticised for ducking the small fighters?
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Old 12-13-2007, 02:20 AM   #2
SuzieQ49
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Default Re: where do Light Heavyweight Champions rank?

I dont have tunney in my top 5. I think the clear # 1 AND # 2 are charles and moore.


1. Ezzard Charles
2. Archie Moore
3. Bob Foster
4. Michael Spinx
5. Harold Johnson
6. Sam Langford
7. Billy Conn
8. John Henry Lewis
9. Gene Tunney
10. Tiger Jack Fox
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:20 AM   #3
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Default Re: where do Light Heavyweight Champions rank?

Suzy, i think you misunderstood my poorly written heading.

I was wondering where the light heavyweight champion of the world generally ranks in the Heavyweight division (as a general rule). ie if you are good enough to beat the very best light heavyweights in the world, where would you usually rank in the heavyweight picture. ie is the Light heavyweight championship worthy of a Heavyweight ranking. Based on past and present results it would seem as if it is.
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: where do Light Heavyweight Champions rank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I dont have tunney in my top 5. I think the clear # 1 AND # 2 are charles and moore.


1. Ezzard Charles
2. Archie Moore
3. Bob Foster
4. Michael Spinx
5. Harold Johnson
6. Sam Langford
7. Billy Conn
8. John Henry Lewis
9. Gene Tunney
10. Tiger Jack Fox
foster above spinks, not sure about that one. Fourie, quarry, rondon and tiger are all good wins. However, i dont think its as good as Qawi, Eddie, Marvin, Yaqui and Mustafa Wassaja. The first 2 were P4P fighters when they fought michael spinks.
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:59 AM   #5
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: where do Light Heavyweight Champions rank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker
Suzy, i think you misunderstood my poorly written heading.

I was wondering where the light heavyweight champion of the world generally ranks in the Heavyweight division (as a general rule). ie if you are good enough to beat the very best light heavyweights in the world, where would you usually rank in the heavyweight picture. ie is the Light heavyweight championship worthy of a Heavyweight ranking. Based on past and present results it would seem as if it is.
Hmm, tough question that depends on the situation.

They could be top10, but i say they're out of the hw top10 until proven otherwise. Jones after beating Ruiz should've been top4, but didn't like his chances and went out.

At this moment, the top10 at heavyweight according to BoxRec is:

1 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]116549 (44) - 3 (3) - 0


2 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]77823 (17) - 0 (0) - 1


3 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]77229 (22) - 1 (0) - 0


4 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]68847 (34) - 1 (0) - 0


5 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]62022 (17) - 0 (0) - 1


6 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]61431 (19) - 1 (0) - 0


7 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]55024 (20) - 1 (0) - 0


8 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]53521 (1 - 1 (0) - 0


9 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]50242 (29) - 7 (1) - 1


10 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]46043 (35) - 1 (1) - 0





1995 34southpaw [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Cuba


While it may not be a perfect top10, let's go by it for the moment.

Who of these men could Hopkins beat? I wouldn't be confident in picking him over any of them, although he has chances against Gomez, Skelton and Thompson. The others are too good and/or too big.

Now if Calzaghe goes up to lightheavyweight and beats Hopkins (which i think he would), then we'd have a bit stronger lightheavyweight champion. But i still wouldn't give him that much more chance.


Therefore i'd say just out of the top10 until proven otherwise.
However, there are usually a few duds in the top10. Wepner, Evangelista, Dunn, etc. Whether or not they are in there legitly, i'd pick the LHW champ over them so in that light, you could say they are top10. But usually, the former mentioned names are only in there for a short period of time.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: where do Light Heavyweight Champions rank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Hmm, tough question that depends on the situation.

They could be top10, but i say they're out of the hw top10 until proven otherwise. Jones after beating Ruiz should've been top4, but didn't like his chances and went out.

At this moment, the top10 at heavyweight according to BoxRec is:

1 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]116549 (44) - 3 (3) - 0
2 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]77823 (17) - 0 (0) - 1
3 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]77229 (22) - 1 (0) - 0
4 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]68847 (34) - 1 (0) - 0
5 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]62022 (17) - 0 (0) - 1
6 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]61431 (19) - 1 (0) - 0
7 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]55024 (20) - 1 (0) - 0
8 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]53521 (1 - 1 (0) - 0
9 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]50242 (29) - 7 (1) - 1
10 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]46043 (35) - 1 (1) - 0



While it may not be a perfect top10, let's go by it for the moment.

Who of these men could Hopkins beat? I wouldn't be confident in picking him over any of them, although he has chances against Gomez, Skelton and Thompson. The others are too good and/or too big.

Now if Calzaghe goes up to lightheavyweight and beats Hopkins (which i think he would), then we'd have a bit stronger lightheavyweight champion. But i still wouldn't give him that much more chance.
I don't think Hopkins would win any of these fights. Maybe Skelton, or Thompson. I do think it is possible for Calzaghe to defeat a few guys on the list. Skelton, Valuev, Ruiz, and Thompson.

To answer Boilmaker's question, I think Tommy Loughran is the fighter to look at. Loughran was a great light heavyweight who fought some ranked heavies over 200 pounds.

Loughran defeated Sharkey, Schaff, Max Baer, and Impellitiere. All four were 200 pounds or more. He also lost to Carnera and Sharkey. Carnera super size was simply too much for Loughran.

The way I see it is this. An extremely talented light heavyweight can beat some of the top ten 200-220 pound heavyweights, but seems to hit the wall vs super sized heavyweights in the top ten.

Roy Jones beat Ruiz, but Ruiz was not a dangerous heavyweight. If Jones would have stuck around to test the heavyweight waters, he would have been knocked out. Jones had offers to fight Vitali Klitschko, and Corrie Sanders, but balked or got a new ranking to avoid the fight. There was also some talk of Lewis vs Jones.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:36 AM   #7
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Default Re: where do Light Heavyweight Champions rank?

Quote:

foster above spinks, not sure about that one. Fourie, quarry, rondon and tiger are all good wins.
those are NOT fosters best wins at all.

eddie cotton, henry hank, allen thomas, dick tiger are by far fosters best wins.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:37 AM   #8
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Default Re: where do Light Heavyweight Champions rank?

Quote:
To answer Boilmaker's question, I think Tommy Loughran is the fighter to look at. Loughran was a great light heavyweight who fought some ranked heavies over 200 pounds.

Loughran defeated Sharkey, Schaff, Max Baer, and Impellitiere. All four were 200 pounds or more. He also lost to Carnera and Sharkey. Carnera super size was simply too much for Loughran.
but watching loughran on film, you tend to see he was nothing special, and was somewhat of a one armed fighter. loughran also beat carnera btw. carnera beat a old loughran.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:38 AM   #9
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Default Re: where do Light Heavyweight Champions rank?

primo carnera got schooled by 195lb larry gaines, and jack sharkey schooled carnera easily over 15.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:39 AM   #10
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Default Re: where do Light Heavyweight Champions rank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
but watching loughran on film, you tend to see he was nothing special,
Dont know where you are coming from there. Against Braddock he is verry impresive to my eye.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:40 AM   #11
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Default Re: where do Light Heavyweight Champions rank?

Janitor,

I was actually more impressed with a young braddock in that film than I was with loughran. braddock lean and in shape was dangerous and had polished boxing skills and one of the best overhand rights at 175lb. loughran appeared to me a poor mans tunney with 1 arm. maybe i am not looking at the right fights.
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