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Old 04-06-2011, 12:59 PM   #16
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Default Re: if joe louis was fighting during the.....

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True. He did lose to 14-20 Izzy Singer. Oh wait. That was Gus/z.
Izzy Singer would have slaughtered Ali. He certainly would have been champion any time from the 50s onwards, but was unlucky to be fighting in a tougher era.

Singer was the best. All his losses were hotly disputed, or blatant dives. It's telling that Joe Louis avoided him like the plague.

SuzieQ might have some more info of it though. My memory's fading a bit, as can be seen by me confusing Gus Dorazio for a journeyman-type fighter.
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:02 PM   #17
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Default Re: if joe louis was fighting during the.....

Looking at his 7 month run compared to other years with similarly ranked opponents:

85
1. David Bey
2. Witherspoon
3. ****ey
4. Tubbs
5. James Broad
6. Berbick
7. Pinklon Thomas

94
1. Alex Garcia
2 McCall
3. Michael Bentt
4. Moorer
5. Mike Hunter
6. Akinwande
7. Foreman

Does not look like he would have much more trouble with either of those runs IMO
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:51 PM   #18
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Default Re: if joe louis was fighting during the.....

Fact is, by these standards, most scalps on ATG resumes are 'bums' (ridiculous term for rated fighters). How many greats does a champion fight in a career? 1? 2? That leaves another 30 or 40 so-called bums to dispatch. If it were so easy, more people than Marciano would retire with perfect records.
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:57 PM   #19
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Default Re: if joe louis was fighting during the.....

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Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69 View Post
Looking at his 7 month run compared to other years with similarly ranked opponents:

85
1. David Bey
2. Witherspoon
3. ****ey
4. Tubbs
5. James Broad
6. Berbick
7. Pinklon Thomas

94
1. Alex Garcia
2 McCall
3. Michael Bentt
4. Moorer
5. Mike Hunter
6. Akinwande
7. Foreman

Does not look like he would have much more trouble with either of those runs IMO
thats 14 fighters better than Tony Galento(who had Louis in trouble)
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:00 PM   #20
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Default Re: if joe louis was fighting during the.....

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Fact is, by these standards, most scalps on ATG resumes are 'bums' (ridiculous term for rated fighters). How many greats does a champion fight in a career? 1? 2? That leaves another 30 or 40 so-called bums to dispatch. If it were so easy, more people than Marciano would retire with perfect records.
Most fight 1 or 2, or none. Muhammad Ali fought 6 top 20 ATG's, 10 times
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:19 PM   #21
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Default Re: if joe louis was fighting during the.....

I think the Late 80s would pretty much look something like this:

Smith
Tucker
Tubbs
Bruno
Witherspoon
Tillis
Williams
M Frazier

He never fought 12 fights in a single year in his title defences. Although remember though that he had already KOd Tyson (Baer), Holmes (Schmelling) and Spinks(Braddock)
and in the year before and after he cleaned up most of the contenders also, just in case you were worried that the above list is missing a few names.

Comparison of eras interesting also. The 80s was known as the era of fat and out of shape contenders who didnt reach their potential. I dont think Joe's time was considered as bad (at least not until JOe came through and cleaned up).
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:37 PM   #22
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Default Re: if joe louis was fighting during the.....

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thats 14 fighters better than Tony Galento(who had Louis in trouble)
Why are these fighters better than Tony Galento?
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: if joe louis was fighting during the.....

Maybe a couple of those guys are better than galento. Like four? And that doesn't mean they'd give Louis trouble. If you're fighting at that pace you're bound to hit the deck once.

Look what what Louis did to Galento after he got up. Some trouble.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:14 AM   #24
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Default Re: if joe louis was fighting during the.....

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Most fight 1 or 2, or none. Muhammad Ali fought 6 top 20 ATG's, 10 times
That depends on who you have in your top 20 !
Who are the 6 ?
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:45 AM   #25
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That depends on who you have in your top 20 !
Who are the 6 ?
At a guess, Holmes, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Liston, Patterson. I dont know if i would necessarilly agree, but it is certainly a possibility.

Not to be denied, Louis could argue the same with Baer, Charles, Marciano, Walcott, Schmelling and Bivins, though Bivins was a tight push for 20th.

And Johnson is right up there with Jeffries, Fitzsimmons, Langford, McVey, Jeannette, Burns although again no 6 is a tough one.

All in all, i think that realistically, unless you totally skew eras, it is not possible o fight 6 top 20 fighters.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:08 AM   #26
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Default Re: if joe louis was fighting during the.....

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At a guess, Holmes, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Liston, Patterson. I dont know if i would necessarilly agree, but it is certainly a possibility.

Not to be denied, Louis could argue the same with Baer, Charles, Marciano, Walcott, Schmelling and Bivins, though Bivins was a tight push for 20th.

And Johnson is right up there with Jeffries, Fitzsimmons, Langford, McVey, Jeannette, Burns although again no 6 is a tough one.

All in all, i think that realistically, unless you totally skew eras, it is not possible o fight 6 top 20 fighters.
Thats right Boiler. Four of them are top 10 on any unbiassed list. Louis and Johnson's lot do not come close.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:17 AM   #27
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Default Re: if joe louis was fighting during the.....

As I said, it depends who you have on your top 20 list.

I think Schmeling, Baer, Charles, Walcott and Marciano are not shocking choices for a top 20 either. I think Norton is a more contentious choice actually.
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Old 04-07-2011, 01:07 PM   #28
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Default Re: if joe louis was fighting during the.....

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As I said, it depends who you have on your top 20 list.

I think Schmeling, Baer, Charles, Walcott and Marciano are not shocking choices for a top 20 either. I think Norton is a more contentious choice actually.
Schmeling, Charles, Marciano sure are. Walcott could easily be, yes. But Baer is definatley not, i'd say he's Frank Bruno/Buster Douglas territory. Norton is a way better choice, you could maybe have Norton above Walcott.
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Old 04-07-2011, 01:34 PM   #29
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Schmeling, Charles, Marciano sure are. Walcott could easily be, yes. But Baer is definatley not, i'd say he's Frank Bruno/Buster Douglas territory. Norton is a way better choice, you could maybe have Norton above Walcott.
Max Baer gave Schmeling and Carnera some SERIOUS beatings in 1933/'34, when those two were the two best fighters in the world. (And you rate Schmeling too)
Max Baer is significantly above Frank Bruno. He thrashed the top 2 fighters in the world at the peak of his career. He was undisputedly the top fighter at one point.
Bruno's record was built on wins over second-raters and losses to the top fighters.
Bruno was never "the man", and even if Tyson and Lewis hadn't been in his time, it's unlikely he would have been. He took 4 attempts to win a fraction of the title.

Norton's claim to fame rests on 3 close fights with Ali.
He failed in 2 challenges for the championship - even if he was robbed against Ali it was close against an over-the-hill fighter. He also lost a 3rd title fight against Holmes.
True enough, Walcott got lots of chances too, but he won the title decisively against Charles, and he has a deeper resume of wins against contenders.
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