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Old 04-10-2011, 09:18 PM   #61
Ai-edy2007
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Default Re: Mousasi vs. Jardine

HAHAHA i thought gegard got robbed keith's face was destroyed, bt props for keith taking the fight on such short notice.
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Old 04-10-2011, 09:29 PM   #62
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Default Re: Mousasi vs. Jardine

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HAHAHA i thought gegard got robbed keith's face was destroyed, bt props for keith taking the fight on such short notice.
He did get robbed... because the scoring system sucks.
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Old 04-10-2011, 10:45 PM   #63
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Default Re: Mousasi vs. Jardine

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Well... Jardine isn't exactly an amazing wrestler. I agree... if you don't advance while on top, or control your opponent while on top, then you shouldn't get much credit for the takedown.... unless it's a great slam or something.

I really don't see wrestler using their knees to stay down too often. It's not a good position to be in anyways. I saw Diaz doing it last night though. Sitting on his hands and knees while moving his head back and forth.

However, MMA is NOT geared toward the wrestler as people like to pretend. First of all... the gloves make it much more difficult to grapple, your grip isn't anything close to what it normally is. Not only that, but it protects the strikers hands, as they could never unload with the kind of shots that they do repeatedly without that protection.

Second, they stand fighters up for lack of ground work, however, they don't put fighters down for lack of stand up action. In a "real fight" a wrestler could hold you down all day if he wanted.... and headbutt your face into mush. Which leads us to....

Third, they took out headbutts and knees to the head while down, and that hurts a wrestler ten times more than it helps him. It's very easy to control a downed opponent while you knee them... however it's once in a blue moon that a stand up fighter is going to catch a wrestler with a knee coming in. Normally that knee would catch them BEFORE they hit their knees anyways. A good takedown shouldn't involve being on your knees very long. Just pop down on one knee then pop back up and drive through for the finish. If you are going to stop that with a knee, it would be just as the wrestler is driving down toward his knee, but before he hits it. A good wrestler shouldn't hit his knee until he is already in on the legs anyways. Headbutts are an entire different issue. We saw what Mark Coleman did with headbutts and they quickly ripped that out of the sport. Do you realize how big of a blow that is? If we are talking about it being a "real fight".

If anything... MMA is geared toward the striker. The gloves, and the rules. It's just that wrestling is a much more dominant base. It's just about the ONLY style where you can have a fighter that knows nothing but it... and still be able to win. It's also the only style that allows you to control where the fight takes place. If the other guy is more dangerous on their feet than you... take them down... if you are better standing up than them... maybe they are a submission artist... you can use your wrestling to keep the fight standing up.

All together... we seem to agree though. Nobody ENJOYS watching a fight where one guy is just laying on the other. I LOVE a good grappling match, where fighters are using G&P and fighters are advancing position, going for submissions, ect.... That is very enteraining to me. However, I do hate it when a fighter just takes a fighter down, throws no punches, doesn't try to advance, and doesn't go for any submissions. That's simply not fighting, and you shouldn't get credit for it. Although, it's tough to give his opponent credit if he is doing nothing but laying on his back, can't prevent the takedown to save his life, and can't stay busy enough off the bottom to escape, or attempt a submission.


BTW... the upkick to the head isn't a great strategy against a wrestler anyways. It isn't often that a good dominant wrestler is going to be in the position to be upkicked in the face (while still on his knees)... that simply means that he is out of position anyways... and doing so because he KNOWS that he can't be upkicked in the face. Remember, they are allowed to upkick as soon as the opponent leaves his knees... which is usually when he is open for it anyways, posturing up on his toes, trying to stack you up and rain down on you. If you could kick/knee a downed opponent... that is once again going to benifit the wrestler because he can knee his opponent as he controls him from the top, and he can stand up from dominant position and kick his downed opponent. Also, wrestler would be able to utilize knees from the front headlock position. No good wrestler should be sitting on his knees in front of an opponent on their feet anyways. If you can't stop a takedown from a wrestler hanging out on his knees than there is no hope. Like I said earlier... the best takedown artists and the proper way to finish a takedown is to drive with your feet. Unless it's a shoestring single, which you don't see very often.

good post.

Knees to a downed opponent would favour wrestlers morso than strikers, so would headbutts.


the upkick to an opponent who is considered down may not be a great strategy vs a wrestler by why limit a fighter on his back? The position you speak of with a wrestler postered up is a good opportunity for the fighter on his back to land upkickes really its the only offensive strike the fighter on his back has.

remember the fight with shinya Aoki vs Gilbert melendez, Melendez was able to stay out of Aoki's guard and and still keep top position by basically stalking Aoki from on his knees (Aoki was on his back) this strategy only worked because of the rules, otherwise he would have been lit up with upkicks.

the way it is now a wrestler gets wins without doing the damage. Takedows > punches to the face.
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:22 PM   #64
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Default Re: Mousasi vs. Jardine

Gerard shows me nothing that makes me think hell be a contender at 185 or 205 or whatever weight for that matter. Hes a good fighter but wrestlers will gobble him up.

Frankly he is abit overrated.
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:31 PM   #65
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Default Re: Mousasi vs. Jardine

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Originally Posted by WiDDoW_MaKeR View Post
Well... Jardine isn't exactly an amazing wrestler. I agree... if you don't advance while on top, or control your opponent while on top, then you shouldn't get much credit for the takedown.... unless it's a great slam or something.

I really don't see wrestler using their knees to stay down too often. It's not a good position to be in anyways. I saw Diaz doing it last night though. Sitting on his hands and knees while moving his head back and forth.

However, MMA is NOT geared toward the wrestler as people like to pretend. First of all... the gloves make it much more difficult to grapple, your grip isn't anything close to what it normally is. Not only that, but it protects the strikers hands, as they could never unload with the kind of shots that they do repeatedly without that protection.

Second, they stand fighters up for lack of ground work, however, they don't put fighters down for lack of stand up action. In a "real fight" a wrestler could hold you down all day if he wanted.... and headbutt your face into mush. Which leads us to....

Third, they took out headbutts and knees to the head while down, and that hurts a wrestler ten times more than it helps him. It's very easy to control a downed opponent while you knee them... however it's once in a blue moon that a stand up fighter is going to catch a wrestler with a knee coming in. Normally that knee would catch them BEFORE they hit their knees anyways. A good takedown shouldn't involve being on your knees very long. Just pop down on one knee then pop back up and drive through for the finish. If you are going to stop that with a knee, it would be just as the wrestler is driving down toward his knee, but before he hits it. A good wrestler shouldn't hit his knee until he is already in on the legs anyways. Headbutts are an entire different issue. We saw what Mark Coleman did with headbutts and they quickly ripped that out of the sport. Do you realize how big of a blow that is? If we are talking about it being a "real fight".

If anything... MMA is geared toward the striker. The gloves, and the rules. It's just that wrestling is a much more dominant base. It's just about the ONLY style where you can have a fighter that knows nothing but it... and still be able to win. It's also the only style that allows you to control where the fight takes place. If the other guy is more dangerous on their feet than you... take them down... if you are better standing up than them... maybe they are a submission artist... you can use your wrestling to keep the fight standing up.

All together... we seem to agree though. Nobody ENJOYS watching a fight where one guy is just laying on the other. I LOVE a good grappling match, where fighters are using G&P and fighters are advancing position, going for submissions, ect.... That is very enteraining to me. However, I do hate it when a fighter just takes a fighter down, throws no punches, doesn't try to advance, and doesn't go for any submissions. That's simply not fighting, and you shouldn't get credit for it. Although, it's tough to give his opponent credit if he is doing nothing but laying on his back, can't prevent the takedown to save his life, and can't stay busy enough off the bottom to escape, or attempt a submission.


BTW... the upkick to the head isn't a great strategy against a wrestler anyways. It isn't often that a good dominant wrestler is going to be in the position to be upkicked in the face (while still on his knees)... that simply means that he is out of position anyways... and doing so because he KNOWS that he can't be upkicked in the face. Remember, they are allowed to upkick as soon as the opponent leaves his knees... which is usually when he is open for it anyways, posturing up on his toes, trying to stack you up and rain down on you. If you could kick/knee a downed opponent... that is once again going to benifit the wrestler because he can knee his opponent as he controls him from the top, and he can stand up from dominant position and kick his downed opponent. Also, wrestler would be able to utilize knees from the front headlock position. No good wrestler should be sitting on his knees in front of an opponent on their feet anyways. If you can't stop a takedown from a wrestler hanging out on his knees than there is no hope. Like I said earlier... the best takedown artists and the proper way to finish a takedown is to drive with your feet. Unless it's a shoestring single, which you don't see very often.

We tend to agree. I really didn't consider Coleman's headbutts to be honest. It's just when wrestling and takedowns are used for scoring points, and avoiding a fight, rather than taking a fight to the ground that is a trend I think is pretty awful.

The knees to the head thing, I believe goes both ways. Wrestlers tend to go for the double leg or single leg, putting them in danger for the knee to the head, as well as in danger when they are properly stuffed to wind up in the very position you are talking about. I think they are more vulnerable to it because they specialize in the double and single leg takedown and are more vulnerable to having a shot stuffed and winding up in that very position.

It sort of goes both ways on this account. BJJ guys tend to do that lazy single leg trip than aggressively go for an all out explosive shot.

I still feel the rules for safety, as well as the given scoring criteria are rather tailored to wrestlers outside of making headbutts illegal.

It's not so much of a reach to simply say that its ultimate wrestling rules for MMA or something similar.
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:49 PM   #66
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Default Re: Mousasi vs. Jardine

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We tend to agree. I really didn't consider Coleman's headbutts to be honest. It's just when wrestling and takedowns are used for scoring points, and avoiding a fight, rather than taking a fight to the ground that is a trend I think is pretty awful.

The knees to the head thing, I believe goes both ways. Wrestlers tend to go for the double leg or single leg, putting them in danger for the knee to the head, as well as in danger when they are properly stuffed to wind up in the very position you are talking about. I think they are more vulnerable to it because they specialize in the double and single leg takedown and are more vulnerable to having a shot stuffed and winding up in that very position.

It sort of goes both ways on this account. BJJ guys tend to do that lazy single leg trip than aggressively go for an all out explosive shot.

I still feel the rules for safety, as well as the given scoring criteria are rather tailored to wrestlers outside of making headbutts illegal.

It's not so much of a reach to simply say that its ultimate wrestling rules for MMA or something similar.
While I disagree with the premise that the rules overly protect wrestlers over strikers I also want to point out that calling the unified rules the ultimate wrestling moves also seems insulting because of the connotations of professional wrestling.

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Wrestlers can have a huge advantage with knees on the ground. I think a sensible rule change would redefine a grounded opponent as having a 3 point stance or being on his back. Having your knees on the ground but being fully postured in guard would no longer be considered grounded. This makes an upkick the style of Mousasi-Jardine or Silva-Okami legal but still leaves the more dangerous strikes out of it.
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:23 AM   #67
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Default Re: Mousasi vs. Jardine

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He did get robbed... because the scoring system sucks.
yea but i think if gegard was all he is hyped up to be im sure he couldve knocked out old man keith, even wanderlei beat keith and in my opinion the K1 heavyweight champ should have beaten a guy who got cut from the UFC.
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:31 AM   #68
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Default Re: Mousasi vs. Jardine

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Originally Posted by yaca you View Post
good post.

Knees to a downed opponent would favour wrestlers morso than strikers, so would headbutts.


the upkick to an opponent who is considered down may not be a great strategy vs a wrestler by why limit a fighter on his back? The position you speak of with a wrestler postered up is a good opportunity for the fighter on his back to land upkickes really its the only offensive strike the fighter on his back has.

remember the fight with shinya Aoki vs Gilbert melendez, Melendez was able to stay out of Aoki's guard and and still keep top position by basically stalking Aoki from on his knees (Aoki was on his back) this strategy only worked because of the rules, otherwise he would have been lit up with upkicks.

the way it is now a wrestler gets wins without doing the damage. Takedows > punches to the face.

I disagree i believed pride favoured strikers over wrestlers look at mirco, shogun, and wanderlei if wrestlers missed a shot it was all over soccer kicks, flying stomps and plus coleman was on steroids back in pride just type mark coleman roid rage after shogun's arm broke. The only good wrestlers in pride was coleman, randleman, rampage and fedor in the sense that he had sambo. However pride favoured strikers as they were more entertaining *subjective* plus all the wrestlers lost to strikers in pride anyway rampage to wanderlei, coleman to mirco and rampage to shogun and UFC favours wrestlers who lay and pray just take the gray maynard and ken flo fight.
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Old 04-11-2011, 07:10 AM   #69
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****ing ridiculous part of the game
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:48 PM   #70
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Keith is one hard bastard.
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Old 04-13-2011, 07:35 PM   #71
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Default Re: Mousasi vs. Jardine

Gegard is legit, he was robbed from the many stoppages allowing Jardine to suck in some air, to the no upkicks that didnt even look like an upkick, down to the scoring. Gegard won that fight from start to finish.
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Old 04-14-2011, 02:36 AM   #72
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Jardines face looks terrible.
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Old 04-14-2011, 07:56 PM   #73
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keith jardine can take punishment yea shot to mousasi not even one scratch
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