Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

[Will Cooling]

Originally Posted by Stoo

We are on the same page here Cooling, chill son. My post may have been briefer but I tried to make the same point

lol I wrote that and then saw you had summarised my point in one sentence

[yaca you]

Its how fedor won that really makes that fight, fedor out-struck the best striker in MMA!

If fedor just shot in for a takedown right into a lay and pray strategy it would be far less valuable of an win, same thing with fedors wins over nog- he doesnt play it safe.

The longevity of his reign at the top is incredible, he was the best heavyweight since beating nog in 2003 up till 2010 thats over seven years on top!

If the mma world was in order all those fights since beating nog would be title defences. obviously things would have been different but untill recently, who the hell stood a chance of beating him? Barnett, couture, lesnar, frank mir?

No! He ruled the most competitive division at the time fought often and dominated.

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by yaca you

Its how fedor won that really makes that fight, fedor out-struck the best striker in MMA!

If fedor just shot in for a takedown right into a lay and pray strategy it would be far less valuable of an win, same thing with fedors wins over nog- he doesnt play it safe.

The longevity of his reign at the top is incredible, he was the best heavyweight since beating nog in 2003 up till 2010 thats over seven years on top!

If the mma world was in order all those fights since beating nog would be title defences. obviously things would have been different but untill recently, who the hell stood a chance of beating him? Barnett, couture, lesnar, frank mir?

No! He ruled the most competitive division at the time fought often and dominated.

So Mirko's mental deficiencies when he doesn't steamroll guys are being overlooked? All credit to Fedor for doing it, but fedors striking has been overrated in my opinion

As for competitive. It was just a case of Nog's Ju Jitsu/ Fedor's sambo/Mirko's striking/ Barnetts wrestling type much up which were more common pre 2005 than it is now and Fedor was the one with the less weakness'.

[yaca you]

Originally Posted by Will Cooling

True but let's put it this way, what is Fedor's third best win? Obviously his wins over Nog and Cro Cop top the list but which name on his resume comes in third? Randleman and Coleman were way passed their primes when faced them, and Sylvia was in the middle of an alarming career slump after his self-confidence and desire were broken by Couture and Nog. So I'd probably say its Arlovski or perhaps Babalu, - either way someone who I'd say is certainly a step below GSP's third best victory (Penn or Fitch depending on how you want to order) and perhaps below Silva's (either Belfort or Sonnen). And the thing thing as you go down the list I think the greater quality of opponents faced by Silva and GSP becomes ever clearer.

And in terms of the length of their dominance, both GSP and Silva won their first UFC titles in late 2006. With the exception of GSP's fluke lost to Serra both have been untouchable since. Fedor's first victory over Nog was in 2003 and his fight against Cro Cop was in 2005. After the Cro Cop fight the quality of opposition fell away dramatically. So I think its certainly an arguable point that Fedor was preeminent in the heavyweight division for longer than Silva or GSP have been at their weights.

You have to look at their performences, randelman and coleman were way past their primes? even if you believe this look at their performences, they both did what they had to to get in a favorable position randelman dropped fedor on his head he did exacly what he needed to and after fedor had his hands raised. these guys werent punching bags they were prepared, fighting fedor is being one step away from greatness and they knew it.

particularly with arlovski, he looked so focused in their with fedor, this was his moment his boxing was superb he was landing on fedor and backing him up he teeps fedor into the corner of the ring goes for a flying knee and BAMMM!!! anybody else he proabably would have been able to pin in that corner and dish out real damage, fedor sees his opening and takes it.

Nitpicking through fighters records is a good way to lose sight of the performence, you miss the magic of what was accomplished, arlovski was still a great striker in an advantageous position. randelman and coleman were still great wrestlers they all did exactly what was expected of them, the best they ever could do and all were in the best positon they could be in...then they lost to fedor.

[yaca you]

Originally Posted by Stoo

So Mirko's mental deficiencies when he doesn't steamroll guys are being overlooked? All credit to Fedor for doing it, but fedors striking has been overrated in my opinion

As for competitive. It was just a case of Nog's Ju Jitsu/ Fedor's sambo/Mirko's striking/ Barnetts wrestling type much up which were more common pre 2005 than it is now and Fedor was the one with the less weakness'.

Mirko did not crack mentally. Cro-cop was still trying to win throught the fight, he gassed a little but both guys were tired.

Did you see how easily fedor dealt with the lhk- the most dagerous strike in all mma? the first time cro-cop threw it it was ducked with ease fedor caught mirkos leg and threw him to the ground! This is something special, a devestating fightending strike shrugged off, mirko never landed that kick and it wasnt through lack of trying. fedor neutralized it.

http://www.gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=1569258&t=o

[Stoo]

It's not like Fedor knew what to expect from Mirko is it. He trained well to counter it and Mirko was left without a plan B which is an example of Cro Cop folding mentally. As I said, Fedor had the least weakness' in the PRIDE HW's and had more tools in his arsenal to win a fight other than 'steamrolling' or in other words landing the left head kick. Doesnt mean that Fedors striking is elite, it means his preparation to deal with Mirko was top notch

[AJAX]

Originally Posted by Stoo

It's not like Fedor knew what to expect from Mirko is it. He trained well to counter it and Mirko was left without a plan B which is an example of Cro Cop folding mentally. As I said, Fedor had the least weakness' in the PRIDE HW's and had more tools in his arsenal to win a fight other than 'steamrolling' or in other words landing the left head kick. Doesnt mean that Fedors striking is elite, it means his preparation to deal with Mirko was top notch

I think what made Fedor so good back in the day was that he was one of the first guys who was dangerous on his feet and the ground, back then Nog was basically a bjj guy, CC was a kickboxer while Fedor could take the fight wherever it went and had a gameplan for Nog and CC.

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by AJAX

I think what made Fedor so good back in the day was that he was one of the first guys who was dangerous on his feet and the ground, back then Nog was basically a bjj guy, CC was a kickboxer while Fedor could take the fight wherever it went and had a gameplan for Nog and CC.

Exactly, cant disagree with that one bit. I just think his striking, while powerful and insane reaction times, is slightly overrated. Not saying bad, it was obviously good enough to deal with Mirko
But the standards have improved since 2005

[Ne5ville14]

Originally Posted by yaca you

so whats your opinion Ne5ville14? was fedor not in control of the fight in both the standup and the ground?

I saw fedor as a fighter with an excellent gameplan to keep backing cro-cop up, counter cro-cops strikes, and if the opportunity presents itself take mirko to the mat.

For me he was in control 100% of the time in that fight, there isn't even a question to ask about that.

The real question is : What was Fedor gameplan into CC fight ? Was it to bring the fight on the ground or keep it standing ?

IMO when the first trip attempt didn't work he didn't want to waste energy and stalling the fight to bring CC down, so he traded with CC and when he saw an opportunity to bring the fight down he jumped on it !

The fight is 50% on the ground and 50% on foot.

Fuckin great fight, one of my favorite !

[Ne5ville14]

Let me put it this way....

If we look at the Semmy Shildt fight, Fedor obviously had a gameplan, almost all the fight is on the ground. Not the CC fight, Fedor wasn't bothered to stand and trade with him, maybe because he felt he was on the same level IDK, but I don't think it was because CC stuffed most of the trip attempt from Fedor, I think he just felt comfortable on his foot aginst him !

[Shogun Assassin]

Originally Posted by yaca you

http://www.gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=1569258&t=o

I like how Mirko gets up and starts pushing Fedor out of the ring .


Goddamn, those were some epic fights between Fedor, Nog and CC, three ATG's in the same division at the same time, fighting each other, good stuff.

[yaca you]

Originally Posted by Stoo

It's not like Fedor knew what to expect from Mirko is it.

so did everyone else but they couldnt stop it, and those that did couldnt take advantage of it.

Originally Posted by Stoo

He trained well to counter it and Mirko was left without a plan B which is an example of Cro Cop folding mentally.

no, I dont agree with this, folding mentally is giving up trying to win the fight which mirko never did.

Originally Posted by Stoo

As I said, Fedor had the least weakness' in the PRIDE HW's and had more tools in his arsenal to win a fight other than 'steamrolling' or in other words landing the left head kick. Doesnt mean that Fedors striking is elite, it means his preparation to deal with Mirko was top notch

Fedor dealt with the lhk, but dealt with mirkos powerful straight left too, then he managed to take down cro-cop who was notoriously hard to take down. Even when fedor was hurt in the first round he didnt lose control of the fight.

Fedor wasnt the best because of well roundedness nog was almost as well rounded, and josh barnett he was wellrounded as a mutherfucker!

People will have you to believe that wellroundedness is king but consider the wellrounded fighter vs the fantastic striker(or any specialist will work) now if the wellrounded guy gets outstruck he goes for the takedown, but what if he cant get it? striker wins.

you need to look no further than damian maia look at all the fighters more well rounded than him. In a would of well rounded fighters the specialist can win, if he knows how to work to his strengths- eventually he will lose but a well rounded guy loses to an even more well rounded guy. Look at a guy like Brandon Vera skillwise he has all the wellroundedness he needs but he still loses because he lacks mental toughness.

fedor was the best because he was able to see openings even under pressure even after being slammed on his head mentally he was focused, and had the courage to take the risk. basically he was even at the disadvantage was always right there to exploit whatever opening you gave him if not he created one. This takes well roundedness but more than that it takes real focus and mental strength.

Let me tell you an ridiculous story I made up, as an analogy:

Take two guys throw them in fierce rapids of a long winding river, fedors the guy who twists and turns to avoid the rocks as he uncontrollably is pulled trough the water hes the guy when he inevitably hits a rock has the mind to avoid the next one, and the next, ect, ect. The other guy is better at avoiding the rocks but when he does get hit he is dazed the he is approaching the next rock but he doesnt see it. bam! then the next one bam! he cant get out of the way.

Fedor is the guy who gets to land goes home and fucks his wife, the other guy leaves his with funeral costs.

[yaca you]

Originally Posted by Ne5ville14

For me he was in control 100% of the time in that fight, there isn't even a question to ask about that.

The real question is : What was Fedor gameplan into CC fight ? Was it to bring the fight on the ground or keep it standing ?

IMO when the first trip attempt didn't work he didn't want to waste energy and stalling the fight to bring CC down, so he traded with CC and when he saw an opportunity to bring the fight down he jumped on it !

The fight is 50% on the ground and 50% on foot.

Fuckin great fight, one of my favorite !

Completely agree, fedor goes with the flow of the fight, I think his gameplans are loose and he uses alot of improv, thats why he is so comfortable no matter what happens.

[yaca you]

Originally Posted by Stoo

Exactly, cant disagree with that one bit. I just think his striking, while powerful and insane reaction times, is slightly overrated. Not saying bad, it was obviously good enough to deal with Mirko
But the standards have improved since 2005

My question is if fedor didnt adapt and randy couture and frank shamrock did, how come they kept getting their asses kicked, while fedor only just recently lost?

was he really that much better to begin with?

How come fedor loses coincidentally at the same age that a fighter typically starts his physical decline?

Interesting that the new breed of heavyweights waited until he slowed down. Where were they when he was whoopin ass.

Is fabricio werdum the new breed?

is Antonio silva who was defeated by werdum?

I find this all very interesting???

.....sounds like some smiles and cries to me.

[Stoo]

so did everyone else but they couldnt stop it, and those that did couldnt take advantage of it.

Ive made this point myself with the training

no, I dont agree with this, folding mentally is giving up trying to win the fight which mirko never did.

I think he did, he gassed slightly and sometimes that can be due to mental as much
physical exertion. Fedor saw what Nog did to Cro Cop mentally when he came out after the beating he took in the 1st round and force the fight to eventually get the takedown in the 2nd and utilised the pressure tactic from the off. But agree to disagree I guess

Fedor dealt with the lhk, but dealt with mirkos powerful straight left too, then he managed to take down cro-cop who was notoriously hard to take down. Even when fedor was hurt in the first round he didnt lose control of the fight.

Yes of course I was generalising because the high kick is the money shot. That was just for the sake of briveity not ignorance. But while the point is raised I think Mirko used his left hand to set up the high kick much better than he did pre Fedor

Fedor wasnt the best because of well roundedness nog was almost as well rounded, and josh barnett he was wellrounded as a mutherfucker!

They never fought, but I think Fedor was more dangerous on his feet. Josh, while capable, was always looking to get the fight to the ground.

People will have you to believe that wellroundedness is king but consider the wellrounded fighter vs the fantastic striker(or any specialist will work) now if the wellrounded guy gets outstruck he goes for the takedown, but what if he cant get it? striker wins.

Randy v Belfort?

you need to look no further than damian maia look at all the fighters more well rounded than him. In a would of well rounded fighters the specialist can win, if he knows how to work to his strengths- eventually he will lose but a well rounded guy loses to an even more well rounded guy. Look at a guy like Brandon Vera skillwise he has all the wellroundedness he needs but he still loses because he lacks mental toughness.

Agree'd somewhat. But Maia v Nate?

fedor was the best because he was able to see openings even under pressure even after being slammed on his head mentally he was focused, and had the courage to take the risk. basically he was even at the disadvantage was always right there to exploit whatever opening you gave him if not he created one. This takes well roundedness but more than that it takes real focus and mental strength.

Ive admitted as much in the reaction times, though I was being specific and talking about the striking.

Let me tell you an ridiculous story I made up, as an analogy:

Take two guys throw them in fierce rapids of a long winding river, fedors the guy who twists and turns to avoid the rocks as he uncontrollably is pulled trough the water hes the guy when he inevitably hits a rock has the mind to avoid the next one, and the next, ect, ect. The other guy is better at avoiding the rocks but when he does get hit he is dazed the he is approaching the next rock but he doesnt see it. bam! then the next one bam! he cant get out of the way.

Cool story bro