Can Anderson Silva surpass fedor as the greatest ever?

[Kittikasem]

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[Will Cooling]

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

And if the UFC was so much stronger than Pride, then how come Chuck Liddell and Vitor Belfort both got badly beaten when they crossed over? Chuck was one of the UFC's top dogs when Rampage beat the shit out of him, and Rampage copped a beating from Wanderlei in his very next fight.

Er no actually. Chuck had just lost to Randy. Nice try. And the fact that Rampage would beat him again in the UFC suggests that Rampage just had Chuck's number. And Vitor Belfort had a longer winning streak in Pride than he ever did in the UFC. Nice try again.

[Shogun Assassin]

Originally Posted by Will Cooling

Er no actually. Chuck had just lost to Randy. Nice try.

And Hendo had just lost to Rampage before he fought AS , they were both still top dogs at the time.

[Black2023]

Originally Posted by Will Cooling

Brett Rogers has never been top competition. And Fedor faced faded versions of Coleman and Sylvia (and Arlovski too).

When Fedor dominated the heavyweight division he was not small for the weight class - Nog and Cro Cop are both around the 230Ibs mark. The superheavyweights of the time were poor fighters - usually both slow and uncoordinated. As bigger, better athletes came into the division Fedor struggled - even Rogers gave him problems and Silva destroyed him. And let's remember Silva is not some unstoppable beast - Werdum beat him and Arlovski managed to avoid taking any serious damage.

Silva has moved up in weight - when he was at Shooto he was their 168Ibs champion. A few mental lapses aside he's been a dominant force for years and his UFC run has been incredible for the quality and variety of opposition he's defeated. World class wrestlers (Henderson, Sonnen), world class grapplers (Leites, Maia), great all round fighters (Franklin - who's defeated every other middleweight he's faced in the UFC), decent strikers (Belfort, Cote, Leben). Its a resume that's superior to both Fedor's and GSP's (although a victory over Shields brings them level in my mind).

So much biased view points here.

Do you agree that once your above 200, 210 it pretty much dosent matter when fighting in regards to weight but more in regard to skill level.

The best fighters now in the heavy division are-

Cain Velaquez 6'1 240
J. Dos Santos 6'4 240
A. Overeem 6'5 260


You could only call one a super heavy and that Overeem....Cain and Junior are very much normal sized heavies....and Cain could lose another 15 pounds of fat in reality.

Saying Fedor didnt beat up any great super-heavyweight is void, as in reality there has never been a great super-heavy or SO CALLED SUPER HEAVY.

Boxing has been around for 120 years.......we have only had 3 or pushing it 4 great super heavies.

Lennox Lewis
R. Bowe
W. Klitshcko
V. Klitshcko..

[Kittikasem]

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

What sort of guy hates Pride and loves the UFC? I've seen people get very attached to fighters, but not fight organizations. Why do you get all hot and bothered over this, did the entire Pride organization sleep with a female relative of yours or something?

Wanderlei was already on the decline by 2005, because he wasn't the same fighter in the MW GP. That was fucking obvious to anyone with eyes. His toothless performance against Arona just wasn't the Wandy of earlier years.

Look at this way - in Pride, Wanderlei fucking annihilated Rampage not once but twice. Then by the time they rematched in the UFC, Rampage knocked him cold. Had Rampage suddenly changed from the Rampage of old into Roy Jones? Nope. He was the same fighter he has always been and always will be, Wandy was just a more fragile, downtrodden fighter by then.

Hendo was getting old, his stamina was on the wane, and he started to become too reliant on power punching. He was still a top fighter in the UFC, just not quite as good as in younger days, like 99% of fighters.

IMO, Big Nog definitely wasn't the same fighter in the UFC that he was in his peak in Pride. Again, simply watching his fights is all the evidence you need of that. The wear and tear of fighting Fedor, Barnett, Crocop, Kharitonov, Werdum, Coleman, Sapp, etc, had clearly worn him down a bit by then. By the time he fought Mir he was shot.

The only one I would say who was still the same fighter by the time he hit the UFC was Crocop, but that one massive shocking kick from Gonzaga changed Crocop. It was such a devastating KO, both physically and mentally, that I don't think he's ever been the same. But I wouldn't argue that he was declined before that fight, because he'd looked absolutely superb in the HW GP less than a year before the Gonzaga fight.


Basically, all those guys spent years destroying each other in Pride, and almost all were older and more beaten up by the time they got to the UFC. The only guys who were as good in the UFC as they were in Pride were guys who were very young in Pride (Shogun) and guys who never seen much action in Pride (Anderson). The older mainstays weren't the same forces that they were years earlier, and as I've said, the evidence is on tape for you to check out.

[(PimpThaSystem)]

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

Wow so much wrong with this.

Dan Henderson did become more reliant on his punches and less reliant on his wrestling in the UFC. Any Dan Henderson fan would concur with this. Hendo wisely used his wrestling in the 1st round against Silva, but a sustained grappling performance from him was rare in the Octagon.

Yes, he "took people down", but scoring a takedown in the midst of a stand-up fight is not the same as making a concerted effort to outwrestle and outgrapple someone. If a decorated wrestler scores one takedown in a fight, does that mean they are 'using their wrestling'? I don't think so. They are neglecting it, if anything.

Hendo, like every other mammal that has ever lived on the planet Earth, has suffered declining stamina with age. The younger Hendo would not have found it so tough going in the late rounds with the likes of Franklin and Shields.

I think Dan looked good against Wandy because every top fighter except Keith 'The Dean Of Shit' Jardine was looking good against Wandy at that stage. I think if Hendo fought Rampage a couple of years earlier in Pride, he'd have beaten him. Hendo's performance in that fight told me he was a declined force, Henderson was always a better all-round fighter than Quinton IMO.

You can pick out mediocre performances from anyone's career and use it in isolation to prove any point, like you have done with 1 or 2 of Hendo's performances. The fact is the guy won the Pride GP within that period, had some very dominant/impressive performances, and only lost to the very top guys.

Stop with this "peak years nonsense"?? Yeah OK man, there is no such thing as a fighter's peak then, all fighters are peak from the moment they turn pro to the moment of their final retirement. Solid theory

You say Dan only lost to the very top guys? You must be forgetting about Misaki and all the other fighters like Kondo, Bustamante, and Ninja that Dan arguably lost to but recieved a decision over.

The absurdity of your argument can be summed up by the fact that you think Dan was peak in 06 when he arguably lost to Kazuo Misaki twice and looked like shit doing so, but was past it in 07 when he knocked out Wand and took the top LHW in world to an extremely close decision.

Your claims that Hendo's reduced use of wrestling and depleted stamina are evidence of him being past peak are unsubstantiated because Dan used his wrestling in all his UFC fights save one (how is getting a takedown not making a concerted effort to outwrestle someone?) and his gastank has never been the best.

Hendo has always been a fighter that show up big for some fights and not so big in others. Yeah sometimes you can quantify a fighters peak years but to say Dan was a different fighter in 06 than he was in 07 is a ridiculous argument.

[Kittikasem]

Originally Posted by (PimpThaSystem)

You say Dan only lost to the very top guys? You must be forgetting about Misaki and all the other fighters like Kondo, Bustamante, and Ninja that Dan arguably lost to but recieved a decision over.

The absurdity of your argument can be summed up by the fact that you think Dan was peak in 06 when he arguably lost to Kazuo Misaki twice and looked like shit doing so, but was past it in 07 when he knocked out Wand and took the top LHW in world to an extremely close decision.

Your claims that Hendo's reduced use of wrestling and depleted stamina are evidence of him being past peak are unsubstantiated because Dan used his wrestling in all his UFC fights save one (how is getting a takedown not making a concerted effort to outwrestle someone?) and his gastank has never been the best.

Hendo has always been a fighter that show up big for some fights and not so big in others. Yeah sometimes you can quantify a fighters peak years but to say Dan was a different fighter in 06 than he was in 07 is a ridiculous argument.

I think you are either 12 years old, or just a bit simple.

Saying someone's peak years were 2001-2006 is not the same as saying "Dan Henderson was PEAK in '06 but SHOT in '07".

The periods where fighters are green, pre-prime, prime, past-prime, shot, etc are not black and white, no-one is saying they are.

But every fighter has a peak, that's an obvious fact of being a fighter. And every fighter declines with age, that's another fact.

If I had to say when Hendo was the best he ever was, I'd say it was in the midst of his Pride era, when he won the GP and was only beaten by serious top guys.

Now, I don't think he uses his wrestling as much and relies on power-punching instead (and I know that the vast majority of Hendo fans would agree) and I think his stamina has declined in recent years (and I know that the vast majority of Hendo fans would agree on that one as well).

And FFS, if a decorated wrestler scores one takedown in a 5-round fight, how the hell is that making a concerted effort to outgrapple someone??! If a boxer lands one punch in a 5-round fight, has he been making a concerted effort to outbox someone?! This point is just too dumb to even debate.


You think the Hendo who had to go life and death with Rich Franklin at 205 was as good as any other version of Hendo ever? Good for you man. Good for you!

[greathamza]

Gdamit my left ball would win over Henderson
i cant read anymore its to much to read

[(PimpThaSystem)]

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

I think you are either 12 years old, or just a bit simple.

Saying someone's peak years were 2001-2006 is not the same as saying "Dan Henderson was PEAK in '06 but SHOT in '07".

The periods where fighters are green, pre-prime, prime, past-prime, shot, etc are not black and white, no-one is saying they are.

But every fighter has a peak, that's an obvious fact of being a fighter. And every fighter declines with age, that's another fact.

If I had to say when Hendo was the best he ever was, I'd say it was in the midst of his Pride era, when he won the GP and was only beaten by serious top guys.

Now, I don't think he uses his wrestling as much and relies on power-punching instead (and I know that the vast majority of Hendo fans would agree) and I think his stamina has declined in recent years (and I know that the vast majority of Hendo fans would agree on that one as well).

And FFS, if a decorated wrestler scores one takedown in a 5-round fight, how the hell is that making a concerted effort to outgrapple someone??! If a boxer lands one punch in a 5-round fight, has he been making a concerted effort to outbox someone?! This point is just too dumb to even debate.

You think the Hendo who had to go life and death with Rich Franklin at 205 was as good as any other version of Hendo ever? Good for you man. Good for you!

Something tells me you severely overestimate your own intellect.

Of course saying Dan's peak years were 2001-2006 is not the same as saying "Dan Henderson was PEAK in '06 but SHOT in '07". I never implied it was. My question is why do you consider 06 a peak year for Dan when he lost to Misaki (arguably twice), looked lackluster against Belfort, and had far better performances against top competition in 07?

You keep saying 01-06 was Dan's prime when he won the WW GP and only lost to top comp, but that last part is completely misleading. Dan lost to Misaki and had a couple of decisions against mid-tier opponents that could of easily went the other way. Although you forget these fights, you constantly cite the competitiveness of Franklin/Hendo as evidence for Dan being past prime in 09 despite Dan looking better in that fight than he did against, say, Misaki or Kondo in Pride.

Speaking of Hendo/Franklin, Dan took Franklin down 4 times out of 6 attempts. Not really consistent with your little "one takedown per 5 round fight" argument. Besides, you make it sound like Dan was a takedown machine in Pride and never stood with anyone ever. The truth, of course, is that Dan utilized his wrestling in Pride more or less the same way he did in UFC.

[Ai-edy2007]

Originally Posted by greathamza

Gdamit my left ball would win over Henderson
i cant read anymore its to much to read

hahaha yea thats my opinion on hendo aswell.

[sugarngold]

Originally Posted by chimba

By the time he does that, He will be in Jon Jones rear view. Being the GOAT sometimes requires timing. Jon Jones making a great fighter like Shogun (good or bad knees) looked like a Cage Rage fighter is a turning point in MMAs evolution.

So no its a little too late for Anderson.

Jones has been impressive so far but he is champ of the most stacked division in MMA. We'll have to see how the rest of his career plays out.

[Vitor Belfort]

Originally Posted by sugarngold

Jones has been impressive so far but he is champ of the most stacked division in MMA. We'll have to see how the rest of his career plays out.

light heavyweight is too deep. Chuck liddell was the last champion who defended the title for a while. Jone could probably defend it a couple of times but i don't know if he could beat all the top LHW. Too much talent for him to handle.

Machida-healthy shogun -rampage-davis etc

[Sloth]

NO!! Never, no way. Anderson is one of the greatest but he never fought in a division where he should have never been(don't even meantion his 205 fights). By that I mean to be way undersized compared to his classmates. Fedor did it in the toughest divison at the pinnacle of the sport. For 10 years!! Just be heavyweight champ in PRIDE between 2003-2006 is impressive enough, but to be undisputed champ and give up major size advantage to almost every opponent, and demolish them, is legendary.

[Sloth]

Originally Posted by AJAX

I think what made Fedor so good back in the day was that he was one of the first guys who was dangerous on his feet and the ground, back then Nog was basically a bjj guy, CC was a kickboxer while Fedor could take the fight wherever it went and had a gameplan for Nog and CC.

I agree. But you have to admit his control over his own emotions and ring intelligence played a huge roll in his success. The guy could'nt be taken off his mental game.