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View Poll Results: How credible is the quote ascribed to Jeffries?
Certainly true. 4 21.05%
Likely true. 2 10.53%
Hard to say. 4 21.05%
Likely false. 7 36.84%
Certainly false. 2 10.53%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-10-2011, 07:34 AM   #46
McGrain
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
It clearly does mean a shallower talent pool
Because of the huge amount of opportunity that lay outwith the sporting world for black men in this era? What? You think these guys were like "**** boxing, i'll be a chartered accountant, four years school and then the bucks start rolling in." That's daft. There was more opportunity in boxing I would bet.

Quote:
and no i dont need to do that to be consistent, you're twisting things. In Jeffries' time the obstacle was clearly much more massive than it was in say the 1960's.
Tell that to Burley and Marshall, likely two of the four most talented fighters in their era full stop and unable to get a title challenge. I also think it is very very very difficult for the am stars locked behind the iron curtain to get a shot - this decimates the talent pool compared to other eras. Pretty hard to take these black champions seriously, isn't? There are many top Cuban pro's now, how many of those great Cuban stars weren't allowed to compete? Not to mention Soviet, Polish etc etc etc.

No title shots for these guys. Couldn't even get a pro fight!

Quote:
And i've clearly suggested twice now that the playing field progreesively became more level over the eras
Yeah, inspite of evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, more races and places are involved with boxing now than ever before. I guess this must mean that Cotto is better than Robinson or something. Not that Robinson matters - I don't believe boxing was legal in certain principalities of China at that time.
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:44 AM   #47
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
2000
V Klitchsko
Byrd - black
Lewis - black
Holyfield - black
W Klitchsko
Ruiz
Rahman - black
Jones Jr - black
Sanders
Brewster - black
Valuev
Maskaev
Briggs - black
Chagaev
Ibragimov
Peter - black
Haye - black

Interesting to note that the best HW's of the last decade are white as much white as black and also that the best HW's now are from the ex-Union. I don't think that it is a coincidence that this comes 10 years after the collapse of the Iron Curtain and the begginings of the ex-Soviet bloc's involvment in proffessional sports.

Speaking personally, this makes it very difficult to take the black champions of preceeding decades seriously.

After all, one would have to presume that Klitchko types would be dominating all boxing if it wasn't for the fact that they had far less opportuinty to take part in sports than the repressed black American of the early 20th century.




Disturbingly you do get the occasional white supremacist popping up on General claiming this kind of thing.

I can't see that what you are saying is any more sensible tbh.

Last edited by McGrain; 05-10-2011 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:02 PM   #48
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
Overstatement??

Heavyweight Champions

Pre 1900
Sullivan
Cobett
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
1900
Hart
Burns
Jack Johnson - black
1910
Willard
1920
Dempsey
Tunney
1930
Schmeling
Sharkey
Carnera
Baer
Braddock
COLOUR BAR SMASHED! - (que - Guile theme)
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Joe Louis - black
1940
Charles - black
1950
Walcott - black
Marciano
Patterson - black
1960
Johansson
Patterson - black
Liston - black
Ali - black
Terrell - black
1970
Frazier - black
Ellis - black
Foreman - black
Ali - black
LSpinks - black
Norton - black
Holmes - black
1980
Tate - black
Weaver - black
Dokes - black
Coetzee
Witherspoon - black
Thomas - black
Page - black
Tubbs - black
M Spinks - black
Berbick - black
Tyson - black
Tucker - black
1990
Douglas - black
Holyfield - black
Mercer - black
Moorer - black
Bowe - black
Lewis - black
Morrison
Bent - black
Hide - black
mcCall - black
Foreman - black
Seldon - black
Bruno - black
Akinwande - black
2000
V Klitchsko
Byrd - black
Lewis - black
Holyfield - black
W Klitchsko
Ruiz
Rahman - black
Jones Jr - black
Sanders
Brewster - black
Valuev
Maskaev
Briggs - black
Chagaev
Ibragimov
Peter - black
Haye - black
I think you are drawing some far reaching conclusions here. Although the colour bar was present in the heavyweight division over the period you identify, it was largley or completely absent in the lower weight classes.

Despite this, the ethnic composition of the fighters thaqt dominated the lower weight classes, was exactly the same as that of the heavyweight weight class over the same period.

Another thing that you have failed to note, is that the rise of the black contenders has been far from a consistent trend. There were far more talented balck fighters in Jack Johnsons day, in all weight classes, than there were in the 20s, or 30s.

As others have said, by your simplistic logic you would have to conclude that black fighters only dominated the heavyweight division for much of the 20th century, because fighters from comunist countries were excluded. Lets face it, the former communist block took over prety quickly once they were alowed to compete.
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:10 PM   #49
SonnyListonsJab
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

Rocky Marciano was the first white heavyweight champion to consistently defend his title against top black contenders. Not enough is made of this.
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:18 PM   #50
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

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Originally Posted by SonnyListonsJab View Post
Rocky Marciano was the first white heavyweight champion to consistently defend his title against top black contenders. Not enough is made of this.
Actualy a great deal is made of this.

It generaly takes the form of attacks on legacy.

Pachillies hates Jeffries because he drew the colour line, and I can live with that, but a lot of the most venomous attacks directed at Marciano are because he beat all the top black contenders of his era.
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