Rank these "Top 5 Defeated Opponents" by Ali, Holyfield & Lewis in overall H2H order

[Kalasinn]

My Ranking:

1. Bowe ('93 Holy II)
2. Foreman ('74 Ali)
3. Tyson ('96 Holy I)
4. Vitali ('03 Lewis)
5. Old Foreman ('91 Holy)

6. Frazier ('75 Ali III)
7. Old Holyfield ('99 Lewis II)
8. Liston ('64 Ali I)
9. Frazier ('74 Ali II)
10. Norton ('73 Ali II)
11. Old Holmes ('92 Holy)
12. Mercer ('96 Lewis) =
12. Mercer ('95 Holy) =
14. Bruno ('93 Lewis)
15. Rahman ('01 Lewis II)


Note: My list might get updated at some point, due to the challenging nature of doing this tight ranking.

[PhillyPhan69]

Originally Posted by Kalasinn

My Ranking:

1. Bowe ('93 Holy II)
2. Foreman ('74 Ali)
3. Tyson ('96 Holy I)
4. Vitali ('03 Lewis)
5. Old Foreman ('91 Holy)

6. Frazier ('75 Ali III)
7. Old Holyfield ('99 Lewis II)
8. Liston ('64 Ali I)
9. Frazier ('74 Ali II)
10. Norton ('73 Ali II)
11. Old Holmes ('92 Holy)
12. Mercer ('96 Lewis) =
12. Mercer ('95 Holy) =
14. Bruno ('93 Lewis)
15. Rahman ('01 Lewis II)


Note: My list might get updated at some point, due to the challenging nature of doing this tight ranking.

Just out of curiosity why do you rate 75 Frazier higher than 74 Frazier, and to a lesser degree 96 Mercer higher than 95 Mercer?

[Kalasinn]

Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69

Just out of curiosity why do you rate 75 Frazier higher than 74 Frazier, and to a lesser degree 96 Mercer higher than 95 Mercer?

Thanks for asking.

Frazier (Ali III) is above Frazier (Ali II), because in Manila, Frazier brought a "raging fury"; the mentality of a fearless come-forward warrior, a vicious junkyard dog who is determined to sadistically inflict as much pain & suffering as possible & is willing to walk through hell & even die in the ring to do so. Whereas in Ali II, Frazier visibly lacked the ferocious burning hunger inside him, & was content to do more "boxing" than "brawling", despite the fact he is only suited for the latter. Where was his "eye of the tiger" in the second fight? I know Ali was allowed to illegally clinch too much, but Frazier clearly had a deficiency in terms of a ferocious desire to be brutally relentless.

As for Mercer, notice that i ranked both versions at #12 & put "=" signs next to them, to represent equality of H2H ability.

[anarci]

Originally Posted by Kalasinn

This should be a fun little task. Included are my opinion of the top 5 opponents beaten (H2H terms) by Ali, Holyfield & Lewis. These 5 opponents for each are not in any order. Your task is to combine the 3 lists of 5, to create a ranked H2H list of 15. Make sure you think in regards to the specific versions of fighters listed in brackets, when creating your list. I hope to see lots of differing opinions. I will do my list later.

Norton ('73 Ali II)
Frazier ('74 Ali II)
Foreman ('74 Ali)
Frazier ('75 Ali III)
Liston ('64 Ali I)

Mercer ('95 Holy)
Old Foreman ('91 Holy)
Bowe ('93 Holy II)
Tyson ('96 Holy I)
Old Holmes ('92 Holy)

Old Holyfield ('99 Lewis II)
Bruno ('93 Lewis)
Vitali ('03 Lewis)
Mercer ('96 Lewis)
Rahman ('01 Lewis II)


Note: Your task is to combine the 3 unordered lists of 5, to create a ranked H2H list of 15.

Note 2: Liston ('65 Ali II) & Tyson ('97 Holy II) are not included for obvious reasons.

Foreman or (74Ali)
Bowe of (93 Holyfield II)
Tyson of (96 Holyfield I)
Vitali of ( 03 Lewis)
Fraizer or ( 75 Ali III)
Fraizer of (74 Ali II)
Mercer of 95 Hoyfield
Old Holyfield (99 Lewis II)
Mercer of (96 Lewis)
Liston of (64 Ali)
Norton of (73 Ali II)
Old Holmes (93 Holyfield)
Old George (91 Holyfield)
Bruno (93 Lewis)
Rahman (01 Lewis II)


Ok this was a tough one as its all about styles I think you could switch Vitali,Tyson and Fraizer 75 anyway you want., for instance Holyfield of 99 probably have had enough left to beat Tyson 96, but i cant rank Holy over the Mercer of 95 someone he bareley edged when he was much fresher. Wanted to put Fraizer above older Tyson and even Bowe and Vitali,but i think they are all wrong for even the thrilla Manila Fraizer, maybe even an old Tyson. Fraizer the better fighter the better fighter than Vitali but dont think Vitali could keep Fraiser honest and use his size, Fraizer had more heart,greater legacy than the comebacking Tyson but when matched up against eachother ,evenn an old Tyson would have still kod Fraizer.....Norton excellent fighter but style wise and old Liston and probably that version of Mercer kos him... BUt I rate Norton as the overall better fighter than Mercer and no way any version of Mercer gives Ali trouble, Like Norton did.

[DonBoxer]

1.Foreman ('74 Ali)
2.Vitali ('03 Lewis)
3.Bowe ('93 Holy II)

Top H2H heavies in their primes.

4.Old Foreman ('91 Holy)
5.Old Holyfield ('99 Lewis II)
6.Frazier ('75 Ali III)
7.Frazier ('74 Ali II)
8.Liston ('64 Ali I)

Top H2H fighters but not at their best.


9.Tyson ('96 Holy I)
10.Norton ('73 Ali II)
11.Bruno ('93 Lewis)
12.Old Holmes ('92 Holy)
13.Mercer ('95 Holy)
13.Mercer ('96 Lewis)
15.Rahman ('01 Lewis II)

Top H2H fighter who have hugely declined and top level contenders/ alphabet holders.

[Kalasinn]

I strongly believe Tyson ('96 Holy I) would brutally slaughter & KO Liston ('64 Ali I) within 3 rounds, but maybe i am in the minority with that controversial opinion in the classic.

[DonBoxer]

Originally Posted by Kalasinn

I strongly believe Tyson ('96 Holy I) would brutally slaughter & KO Liston ('64 Ali I) within 3 rounds, but maybe i am in the minority with that controversial opinion in the classic.

I think 96 Tyson would KO/TKO 64 Liston in the mid rounds. Tyson very nearly made it into that bracket with Liston but i think Liston coming off 2 wins over Patterson are worth a lot more than Seldon and Bruno for me justifying who is better H2H at those specific times.

[Kalasinn]

Originally Posted by DonBoxer

I think 96 Tyson would KO/TKO 64 Liston in the mid rounds. Tyson very nearly made it into that bracket with Liston but i think Liston coming off 2 wins over Patterson are worth a lot more than Seldon and Bruno for me justifying who is better H2H at those specific times.

Ok i can understand your chosen criteria of coming off better wins, & i'm pleasantly surprised you logically favour Tyson.

Anyway, i strongly believe the 189/194lb shaky-chinned Patterson would be obliterated in a round by '96 Tyson too, but i realise i can't give him credit for fantasy fight predictions.

[anarci]

I think alot of people are a little to sentimental for Old George and rating him to high.

[DonBoxer]

Originally Posted by anarci

I think alot of people are a little to sentimental for Old George and rating him to high.

This is the classic.

Ohh boy was big George a classic.

[crippet]

Lewis' wins over Golota, Ruddock and Tua are far superior than the Rachman or Bruno wins and probably better than the Mercer one too

[Kalasinn]

Originally Posted by crippet

Lewis' wins over Golota, Ruddock and Tua are far superior than the Rachman or Bruno wins and probably better than the Mercer one too

Well that's your opinion, i did put a disclaimer at the bottom of page 1.

Regarding Tua, at 245lbs he loses to all of those guys you listed.

[crippet]

Originally Posted by Kalasinn

Well that's your opinion, i did put a disclaimer at the bottom of page 1.

Regarding Tua, at 245lbs he loses to all of those guys you listed.

How would Bruno go 12 rounds without getting KO'd against Tua??

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69

Based on the list, and initial impression....

01. 74 Foreman (Ali)
02. 64 Liston (Ali)
03. 93 Bowe (Holy)
04. 03 Vitali (Lewis)
05. 99 Holyfield (Lewis)
06. 96 Tyson (Holy)
07. 74 Frazier (Ali)
08. 73 Norton (Ali)
09. 75 Frazier (Ali)
10. 92 Holmes (Holy)
11. 91 Foreman (Holy)
12. 95 Mercer (Holy)
13. 93 Bruno (Lewis)
14. 96 Mercer (Lewis)
15. 01 Rahman(Lewis)

Its hard to tell how much a 1964 Liston had left. And Foreman's 1974 effort and form vs. Ali was horrible. Both guys were much better 2-3 years before they fought Ali. Conversely Vitlai was approaching his prime, and Bowe wasn't far removed from his.



My top five on those dates would be:
Vitali
Foreman
Liston
Bowe
Tyson

[Kalasinn]

Originally Posted by crippet

How would Bruno go 12 rounds without getting KO'd against Tua??

Good point, but is surviving 12 rounds with a lazy Fat Tua really more difficult than lasting against a Prime McCall?

Anyway, if you really want crippet (& anyone else with the same problem) then you can do your top 15 list with Rahman & Bruno substituted for alternative Lewis opponents.