Rank these "Top 5 Defeated Opponents" by Ali, Holyfield & Lewis in overall H2H order

[Blood Green]

Liston is kind of iffy because of the shoulder problem.

[Kalasinn]

Originally Posted by Blood Green

Liston is kind of iffy because of the shoulder problem.

That might help explain why his lazy effort was so half-assed.

[DonBoxer]

Originally Posted by Kalasinn

Good point, but is surviving 12 rounds with a lazy Fat Tua really more difficult than lasting against a Prime McCall?

Anyway, if you really want crippet (& anyone else with the same problem) then you can do your top 15 list with Rahman & Bruno substituted for alternative Lewis opponents.

I would have maybe made some changes but was too lazy to think so decided to just go with yours, i guessed you would have put some good thought into them and i dont think there can be any huge arguments against the people you choose.

[DonBoxer]

Originally Posted by Kalasinn

That might help explain why his lazy effort was so half-assed.

If a lazy effort is half assed does not not mean he actually tried?

[anarci]

Originally Posted by Kalasinn

Yes they are meant to be (my opinion of) the top 5 wins of each in "H2H terms" for the particular version of the fighter they defeated.

I understand there is a big difficulty picking the top 5 for Lewis... because Hasim Rahman could easily be substituted for Andrew Golota, Tony Tucker, David Tua, Shannon Briggs, Razor Ruddock, Oliver McCall or Tommy Morrison.

I think Ruddock should have been in there over Bruno or the guys you mentioned.. If Tucker was prime id go with him but Lewis fought the faded verison... TM should have put Tysons top 5 opponents in there too.

[anarci]

Originally Posted by crippet

Lewis' wins over Golota, Ruddock and Tua are far superior than the Rachman or Bruno wins and probably better than the Mercer one too

I think Golota, Ruddock take Rahman too in athth matuch, but i think you almost had to put hiim on here .. As those 2 wee smoked by Lewis.. And this was also a bigger win as he was getting revenge on the guy who embarrased him and laid him out..,,, And i disagree about Mercer not being a good win(even though i had it even).Lewis showed he had heart, and that he could turn it up when he had too, also showed a good chin in this fight.. Mercer of 95,96 was much better than the . wild clubbber who kod Morrison and was schooled by old Larry... Ray was faster,. threw more punches in bunches,and showed a very good jab, IN 92,93, Mercer was just a wild clubber who got by on his punch and chin.definitely deserves to be on this list.. He took the 2 best Hw of that era to the wire and some though he pulled the Lewis fight out,,

I wasnt impressed with the win over Tua... Tua looked like he didnt even try and Lewis was content to paw and jab and keep him at a distance.. Nothing impressive about keeping a passive, and 8 inches shorter fighter was just happy to be there. I think they made an agreemnet before the fight Lewis told him if you dont rush on all fired up throwing power punches, i promise to not lay heavy leather in return., ill jsut paw and throw jabs to make it look like im putting on a masterful performance.

[DonBoxer]

Originally Posted by anarci

I wasnt impressed with the win over Tua... Tua looked like he didnt even try and Lewis was content to paw and jab and keep him at a distance.. Nothing impressive about keeping a passive, and 8 inches shorter fighter was just happy to be there. I think they made an agreemnet before the fight Lewis told him if you dont rush on all fired up throwing power punches, i promise to not lay heavy leather in return., ill jsut paw and throw jabs to make it look like im putting on a masterful performance.

As much as that is one of the most boring fights in the career of Lewis i think it demonstrates a few different attributes for Lewis.

1. Some of the bombs Lewis took from Tua. Clean left hooks that were known to be devastating, Lewis absorbed them well, i think its a great fight for helping put the myth of the Lewis glass jaw to sleep, especially because i think most consider Tua to be a very big puncher.

2. It also helps demonstrate that just being a big puncher is not enough to beat Lewis and that if a one dimensional fighter gets in the ring with him he will outbox him.

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by Kalasinn

This should be a fun little task. Included are my opinion of the top 5 opponents beaten (H2H terms) by Ali, Holyfield & Lewis. These 5 opponents for each are not in any order. Your task is to combine the 3 lists of 5, to create a ranked H2H list of 15. Make sure you think in regards to the specific versions of fighters listed in brackets, when creating your list. I hope to see lots of differing opinions. I will do my list later.

Norton ('73 Ali II)
Frazier ('74 Ali II)
Foreman ('74 Ali)
Frazier ('75 Ali III)
Liston ('64 Ali I)

Mercer ('95 Holy)
Old Foreman ('91 Holy)
Bowe ('93 Holy II)
Tyson ('96 Holy I)
Old Holmes ('92 Holy)

Old Holyfield ('99 Lewis II)
Bruno ('93 Lewis)
Vitali ('03 Lewis)
Mercer ('96 Lewis)
Rahman ('01 Lewis II)


Note: Your task is to combine the 3 unordered lists of 5, to create a ranked H2H list of 15.

Note 2: Liston ('65 Ali II) & Tyson ('97 Holy II) are not included for obvious reasons.

(1) Foreman ('74 Ali)
(2) Vitali ('03 Lewis)
(3) Bowe ('93 Holy II)
(4) Tyson ('96 Holy I)
(5) Rahman ('01 Lewis II)
(6) Frazier ('74 Ali II)
(7) Old Holyfield ('99 Lewis II)
( Bruno ('93 Lewis)
(9) Liston ('64 Ali I)
(10) Norton ('73 Ali II)
(11) Old Holmes ('92 Holy)
(12) Old Foreman ('91 Holy)
(13) Frazier ('75 Ali III)
(14) Mercer ('95 Holy)
(15) Mercer ('96 Lewis)

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by Kalasinn

My Ranking:

1. Bowe ('93 Holy II)
2. Foreman ('74 Ali)
3. Tyson ('96 Holy I)
4. Vitali ('03 Lewis)
5. Old Foreman ('91 Holy)

6. Frazier ('75 Ali III)
7. Old Holyfield ('99 Lewis II)
8. Liston ('64 Ali I)
9. Frazier ('74 Ali II)
10. Norton ('73 Ali II)
11. Old Holmes ('92 Holy)
12. Mercer ('96 Lewis) =
12. Mercer ('95 Holy) =
14. Bruno ('93 Lewis)
15. Rahman ('01 Lewis II)


Note: My list might get updated at some point, due to the challenging nature of doing this tight ranking.

You think way too highly of the old , obese , slow , barely moving , plodding , armpuncing Foreman whom took 12 rounds of punishment to KO Moorer whom might have even not deserved the win against a cardiovascularly malfunctioning Holyfield whom destroyed him in the rematch , but wait .. , you mean the (same as above) Foreman who took 12 rounds of punishment for glory and a payday , and the chance of having a lucky flush score which actually happened but still didn't win him the day .

[anarci]

Originally Posted by frankenfrank

You think way too highly of the old , obese , slow , barely moving , plodding , armpuncing Foreman whom took 12 rounds of punishment to KO Moorer whom might have even not deserved the win against a cardiovascularly malfunctioning Holyfield whom destroyed him in the rematch , but wait .. , you mean the (same as above) Foreman who took 12 rounds of punishment for glory and a payday , and the chance of having a lucky flush score which actually happened but still didn't win him the day .

Even though i got love for Big George. I think this is the best post you have probably ever made Foreman very dangeruos,great Jab,Great chin..l,,But overall to slow and in long fights he got hit alot.,, People just remember the effort he put up with Holy or his ko over Moorer..

But they forget about him being outboxed by Tommy Morrison Going life and death and taking a beating vs gatekeper(at the time) Alex Stewart...Also got gift over Axel chulz, Close fight with Lou Savarese who was more like a top 20 hw than a real contender.,Aksi hs figght with a still green Briggs was about even (no robbery).. Lets be real Foreman was never one of the best hw of the 90s,More like a a bordekube top 10 contender, who was matched well fought a spiirtive and Competetive fight with Holy,and landed a hail mary on a firghter who was domination him,,,There is a reason you never heard him mention Lewis,Bowe and certain other hws.... Hell he didnt even want no part of old man Holmes...

Dont get me wrong good enough to ko some good,quality hw contenders on a good night.,.. But also bad enough to barely get by top 20 for tough journeyman types. He was matched wiell in his 2nd career.

Originally Posted by DonBoxer

As much as that is one of the most boring fights in the career of Lewis i think it demonstrates a few different attributes for Lewis.

1. Some of the bombs Lewis took from Tua. Clean left hooks that were known to be devastating, Lewis absorbed them well, i think its a great fight for helping put the myth of the Lewis glass jaw to sleep, especially because i think most consider Tua to be a very big puncher.

2. It also helps demonstrate that just being a big puncher is not enough to beat Lewis and that if a one dimensional fighter gets in the ring with him he will outbox him.

David Tua was the fattest man to ever fight for the title. Tua was a decent puncher at 225lbs yet he weighed 250lbs for his fight with Lewis and at the time he signed the contract to fight Lewis he was weighing over 300lbs. come fight night Tua had got down to 250lbs but there was no snap on his punches as he trudged forward after the back-peddling Lewis. your claim that this should dismiss the myth about Lewis having a glass chin is wishful thinking, Hasim Rahman poleaxed Lewis yet Rahman never in his career before or after was able to "Bomb-out" an opponent like he did Lewis, same goes for Oliver McCall

[JAB5239]

Originally Posted by quarry

David Tua was the fattest man to ever fight for the title. Tua was a decent puncher at 225lbs yet he weighed 250lbs for his fight with Lewis and at the time he signed the contract to fight Lewis he was weighing over 300lbs. come fight night Tua had got down to 250lbs but there was no snap on his punches as he trudged forward after the back-peddling Lewis. your claim that this should dismiss the myth about Lewis having a glass chin is wishful thinking, Hasim Rahman poleaxed Lewis yet Rahman never in his career before or after was able to "Bomb-out" an opponent like he did Lewis, same goes for Oliver McCall

Lol, let the Lewis hatred and lies begin!!

[DonBoxer]

Originally Posted by quarry

David Tua was the fattest man to ever fight for the title. Tua was a decent puncher at 225lbs yet he weighed 250lbs for his fight with Lewis and at the time he signed the contract to fight Lewis he was weighing over 300lbs. come fight night Tua had got down to 250lbs but there was no snap on his punches as he trudged forward after the back-peddling Lewis. your claim that this should dismiss the myth about Lewis having a glass chin is wishful thinking, Hasim Rahman poleaxed Lewis yet Rahman never in his career before or after was able to "Bomb-out" an opponent like he did Lewis, same goes for Oliver McCall

Your right.


I apologies.

[anarci]

Originally Posted by Kalasinn

Yes they are meant to be (my opinion of) the top 5 wins of each in "H2H terms" for the particular version of the fighter they defeated.

I understand there is a big difficulty picking the top 5 for Lewis... because Hasim Rahman could easily be substituted for Andrew Golota, Tony Tucker, David Tua, Shannon Briggs, Razor Ruddock, Oliver McCall or Tommy Morrison.

Before hs controverial stoppag to Tua in the 1st fight.. That was the best Rahman i ever saw, he had TUas number boxing ,jabbing, beatiing Tua to the punche even showed some suprisignly good footwork this was when both guys were in the prime...
THen B POOOOOOW Tua hits him a split second after the bell.. At the time i was borderline, but watching the replay it was clear Rahman didnt expect it and Tua should have disqualified.

As for Briggs im not sure... For the most part prime Rahman was bettter, Even in his priem he was hot and cold ..Rahman was better than the Briggs who was lucky to beat FOremna, Or the one who drew with Botha..

THe one who fought Lewis though looked awesome in ther first few rounds and i can see that version stopping Rahman early.. Back then though Briggs would tend to fade later and Rahman could get him if he lasts... Kind of pickem , but Rahman had the better resume.

Then a few years later they rematched and it was a draw.. I will admit i havent seen the 2nd fight,btu i think i reacalll most thought Rahman was robbed of a win.. If this is true Rahman unoficially proved to be the better man and should be 2-0 vs Tua.

PRime Tucker would have beaten Rahman but the version Lewis fought was past his better days. He could stil take a shot,punch,and had size but he his skills had Obviously left him he was a bordeline top10 at this time, Rahman would win this and definitely the better fighter at the time.

Rahman more times than not kos Tommy.


As for Briggs im not sure, for consistency id say Rahman was the better fighter, had the beter wins. Even i n Briggs prime he was hot and cold and even lost to some less poor oppoisiton . And the Rahman who kod Sanders, and having his way with Tua would have whupped the Briggs who was lucky to beat Foreman and fought questionable draw with Botha
Briggs is a close matchup. Briggs would have to get him early though. The one who fought Lewis though looked awesome though and might spark Rahman.. Briggs had me thinking upset in the first and rocked Lewis early ,and had Lewis knowing he was in with a dangerous man that night.. But we know what happen after Briggs shot his load.Back then Briggs would look good early then fiz out and look ordinary, If Rahman makes it past the early rounds he beats Briggs... Overall Rahman had the better wins though.
.. T
The Mccall who had a breakdown wouldnt have beaten anyone... that fight shoulnt be considered.



These are the only 2.. But since Rahman kod him previoulsy this has to be considered a top win for Lewis since he got his revenge in a dominant ko.

The Golota who beat Lewis would probably take Rahmna if he didnt freak out..

Of all the guys mentioned, i have no doubt that Ruddock would have kod Rahman.

[anarci]

Originally Posted by DonBoxer

1. Some of the bombs Lewis took from Tua. Clean left hooks that were known to be devastating, Lewis absorbed them well, i think its a great fight for helping put the myth of the Lewis glass jaw to sleep, especially because i think most consider Tua to be a very big puncher.

I honestly dont recall being impressed with any of the shots Tua landed....They might have looked like they were flush, but they werent as hard or clean as you think,Lewis was able to keep him in perfect range and prevent Tua from doing much damage. Tua was also pretty laid back and only occasionly threw wild haymakers,that missed completely or didnt land clean, Tua was a huge puncher if he hit you right,but had no where near the shapness,speed or timing that Tyson had, some of his lot of his shot were thudding,strong but no ko punches.. A few of those punches you are talking about that landed on Lewis Kind of like the shots Maidana landed on Kahn in the late rounds,looked flush and scary considering the reps of the guys throwing them,, btu really didnt have much on them.