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View Poll Results: How would do you grade Dempseys championship reign?
A+ 2 3.39%
A 1 1.69%
A- 2 3.39%
B+ 5 8.47%
B 18 30.51%
B- 5 8.47%
C+ 7 11.86%
C 7 11.86%
C- 7 11.86%
D 5 8.47%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-17-2011, 04:35 AM   #16
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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I don't think there was an awful lot of demand or clamour for a Dempsey-Greb fight, rightly or wrongly.
Yeah, there was considerable interest in the fight and we've actually been through this before.

However, there was nothing like the clamour there was for him to fight Wills, if that's what you mean
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Old 05-17-2011, 05:12 AM   #17
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Yeah, there was considerable interest in the fight and we've actually been through this before.

However, there was nothing like the clamour there was for him to fight Wills, if that's what you mean
Yes, we've been through it before. Greb was considered a worthy contender and a possible challenger..
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Old 05-17-2011, 10:38 AM   #18
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
Lets look at who he fought and discuss the ramifications of not making a Greb or Wills fight.

Willard-In many people eyes the worst of the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] champions

Billy Miske-Had one win over a top heavyweight (Bill Brennen) and was 3-2-3 in his last 8 fights and had Brights disease which would kill him less than 4 years later. Had [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] to Greb.

Bill Brennen-Hadn't beaten a top fighter in some time and had lost to Greb.

Georges Carpentier-Light [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] who ducked Greb and hadn't beaten a top heavyweight in years.

Jimmy Darcy-Dempsey's sparring partner who had a career 52-72-42 (16) record.

Tommy Gibbons-Excellent light heavy who had already lost to Greb.

Luis Firpo-Tough, but crude and unskilled.

Gene Tunney-One of the greatest light heavies ever.

8 title fights in 7 years. Blatently ducked both Harry Greb and Harry Wills. Dempsey was good was his reign as champion, really?
WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH YOU SPEW OUT....Once again a HATE FILLED post by you who knows absolutely nothing whatsoever about the sport of boxing... talk about a "Loaded-Question" which is what you have posted here.. never in boxing history other than by yourself has it been known that Jack Dempsey avoided Harry Greb.. you have made this comment on the other forum and had your case completely dismissed as GARBAGE... you are known to be a HATER of Legendary fighters like Dempsey, Tunney, Frazier, Marciano, Pep & Tyson...You was bought 2 books for Christmas by your parents Bio's of Langford & Greb and you spew-out these ridiculous comments of how every great fighter in history was terrified to fight either fighter.... Jack Dempsey was the Heavyweight Champion of the World weighing 195-200lbs.standing 6`1`. Harry Greb the middleweight champion weighing 160-168lbs & 5`8ins.. Never ever in his entire career did Harry Greb ever fight Heavyweights of the caliber of Dempsey or World class contenders, he fought fighters upto 175lbs including Gene Tunney who "hammered Greb 4-1 in their series with Tunney beating Greb easier each time they fought and losing their first fight due to swallowing a mixture made-up to stop bleeding.. Greb's management once made a feeble offer for their man to face Dempsey yet the champion had bigger and better fish to fry and had very little interest in fighting a guy like Greb who Dempsey often used as his sparring partner.... You often claim that Greb "beat-up" Dempsey in sparring which is simply not true. Great fighters use smaller fighters in sparring so as to build-up their speed in the weeks leading up to fight night like Joe Frazier used Gipsy Joe Harris the welterweight contender as his sparring partner. Muhammad Ali would use Bossman Jones as would George Foreman, Mike Tyson would use Glen McCrory and other lighter weight fighters with fast hands to get his speed of punch upto scratch and that is exactly what Jack Dempsey done with Harry Greb... Yet in your eyes Dempsey was "Ducking Greb"... you are a clown JAB who's knowledge of this sport is zero.... does any of these articles mention Dempsey Ducked Greb or was "terrified" of Langford like you claim..

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You analysis of Dempseys opponents and in particular Jess Willard are laughable and proves as i have alway's claimed that you are a HATER who claims Frazier, Marciano & Dempsey are not Top 10 fighters take your hate filled agenda back to where you came from and watch your Tommy Morrison DVDs

Read the Top Link and in particular what the Legendary Ray Arcel had to say.

Last edited by quarry; 05-17-2011 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 05-17-2011, 11:28 AM   #19
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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It's the inactivity that hurts his reign the most.
True. At the time of the first Gene Tunney bout,Jack had n't fought for three years.
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Old 05-17-2011, 11:37 AM   #20
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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Originally Posted by quarry View Post
Yet in your eyes Dempsey was "Ducking Greb"... you are a clown JAB who's knowledge of this sport is zero.... does any of these articles mention Dempsey Ducked Greb or was "terrified" of Langford like you claim..

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Why are those articles the be all and end all of analysis for Dempsey? An old post:

The earliest reference i've seen to Greb's calling out Jack is in 1918, before Dempsey was even champion. This was directly after one of Greb's wins over Battling Levinksy, who Greb would beat six (i think?) times out of six. Greb's challanged went unanswered and Dempsey matched Levinsky in Novemeber of that year, knocking him out in three - Greb wasn't boxing in Novemeber due to injury, but was busy again in January, Dempsey - deliberately or not - having by-passed Greb in favour of a fighter Greb had proven his superiority too and then treading water until his challange against Willard. Greb remained busy, never knowing what it meant for a fighter to rest on his laurels.

Greb's run at the HW title had begun with Willard in possesion of the title. In 1918 he had beaten Billy Miske, but it was 1919 that he would really stake his claim, against Bill Brennan, described by the Pittsburgh Post as "the best man in his class in the country[outside of Jack Dempsey]". The two met first in New York in Febuary - Greb was Brennan's total master, some papers scoring this fight a shut-out. Brennan apparantly was claiming that he was out of condition for this fight, and Greb being Greb, a re-match was granted. The Pittsburgh Post's headline for that fight: "Bill Brennan Beaten In Every Round". In spite of every concievable advantage in terms of size - height, reach and weight - Brennan was not in the fight, he was totally dominated.

The two met again 16 months before Dempsey would match Brennan for the HW title. Again, the fight was a one sided beating. The New York Times and the Washington Post both gave Greb "every single round". Frankly, it seems Brennan was not in Greb's class...but the title shot would go to Brennan.Brennan would tell journalist Paul Kennedy that "if Dempsey was fighting [Greb] instead of me, I would be on Greb" after his eventual fight with Jack.


It seems that there was work afoot to bring the two together almost as soon as Dempsey lifted his title, with promoters Jimmy Shelvin anbd Matt Hinkle both trying to land the fight. The Pittsburgh Post: "It is up to Dempsey. And it is going to be difficult for Dempsey to say "Go get a reputation for Greb's fought four fights to Dempsey's one, and licked as many, if not more HW's." The fight, of course, didn't come off. Instead, Greb would fight Miske, who Greb had already beaten a couple of times, including a fight that went 8-1-1 in Greb's favour according the Pittsburgh Post...is anyone finding this disturbing yet? Dempsey's decisions to match men that Greb has already crushed instead of Greb himself seems bizzare to me...


And it's not over yet. After apparently mastering Dempsey in sparring, Greb would crush Gibbons "manhandled him gleefully and semed to get a deal of satisfaction out of it", and he also did better against Meehan than Demspey did.


Miske, Brennan and Gibbons all get title shots


But no title fight for Greb.

Why not?




Dempsey himself admitted to being scared of Langford, when he was a youngster. By the time he was champ, Langford was old.

Still, he would have been a better opponent than the absolutely nobody Dempsey fought for however long he just didn't bother.

Personally, I think Greb might have beaten him over the ten round distance.
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:00 PM   #21
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys title reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

By the standard of precedence, it was a decent enough reign. Corbett, Fitz, Johnson and Willard should have their reigns compared against his. Among his immediate successors, please do take a look at their title stints as well. Corbett had one successful defense in nearly five years. Fitz lost to Jeff over two years after dethroning Corbett. Johnson had a great start emulating the drastic change in activity brought about by Jeff and Burns, defending four times in 1909 alone, but didn't defend for two years after Jeffries. Willard defended against Moran a year after Havana, then not again until Dempsey nearly three and a half years later.

Tunney was on a one defense per year pace, as were Schmeling and Sharkey.

Carnera bucked this trend, defeating Loughran and Uzcudun in legitimate title defense wins during the eight months following his ascension in what youtube footage reveals to be a legitimate battering of Sharkey. Before a year had elapsed, he would risk it yet again against Max Baer. For being a fighting HW Champion with the highest activity rate of any titleholder since 1910, and until 1938, I believe Primo belongs in Canastota.

Max Baer lost to Braddock a year after dethroning Carnera. If Max had successfully defended, I don't think he would have gotten much credit at all for who many saw as a sub par challenger. Of course Braddock sat on the throne for over two years before getting knocked out by Louis, who it can be very legitimately opined was a less worthy challenger than Schmeling. (And Joe himself seemed to agree, saying, "I ain't champion till I beats Smellin!'")

When measured against the tenures of Corbett, Fitz, latter reign Johnson, Willard, Tunney, Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer and Braddock, I think Dempsey's stretch with the championship measures up reasonably well. He did defend twice in 1920, once in 1921, and twice in 1923. Two years of inactivity did hamper his performance against Tommy Gibbons, competitive resharpening that proved valuable in dealing with Firpo. Three years of mothballs was far too much time to lose for Tunney though, when a younger Mauler was so compromised after two years for Shelby.

Jack was justifiably criticized and ridiculed at the time for not defending between 1923 and 1926, but it is a business, and he was the highest paid athlete of 1925 despite not putting the title on the line. Yes, he should have defended against Wills, but Harry himself said it wasn't Dempsey's fault, and Manassa Jack did qualify for a Tunney rematch by knocking out the conqueror of Wills. (The controversial ending of Dempsey-Sharkey is unfortunate, but Dempsey's power was starting to tell with eight rounds to go, and a longer contest would have benefited him greatly in his last title challenge.)

A defense against Greb would have been a no win situation for Jack. Either he's beating up on a much smaller man like Carp if he wins by knockout, or takes a tremendous rap for failing to take the middleweight out. As for Wills, Jack held a substantial edge in youth, and it seemed Wills may have been tailor made for him. Dempsey might have been dogged for beating up another old man like Willard. However, it remains a fact of who Jack did lose the title to, and to be defeated by Tunney, he had to defend against him in the first place, just as Burns crossed the color line with Johnson.
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:02 PM   #22
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
Lets look at who he fought and discuss the ramifications of not making a Greb or Wills fight.

Willard-In many people eyes the worst of the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] champions

Billy Miske-Had one win over a top heavyweight (Bill Brennen) and was 3-2-3 in his last 8 fights and had Brights disease which would kill him less than 4 years later. Had [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] to Greb.

Bill Brennen-Hadn't beaten a top fighter in some time and had lost to Greb.

Georges Carpentier-Light [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] who ducked Greb and hadn't beaten a top heavyweight in years.

Jimmy Darcy-Dempsey's sparring partner who had a career 52-72-42 (16) record.

Tommy Gibbons-Excellent light heavy who had already lost to Greb.

Luis Firpo-Tough, but crude and unskilled.

Gene Tunney-One of the greatest light heavies ever.

8 title fights in 7 years. Blatently ducked both Harry Greb and Harry Wills. Dempsey was good was his reign as champion, really?
Sounds far greater than Tyson, who was obviously a unqualified fraud.
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:06 PM   #23
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys title reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
By the standard of precedence, it was a decent enough reign. Corbett, Fitz, Johnson and Willard should have their reigns compared against his. Among his immediate successors, please do take a look at their title stints as well. Corbett had one successful defense in nearly five years. Fitz lost to Jeff over two years after dethroning Corbett. Johnson had a great start emulating the drastic change in activity brought about by Jeff and Burns, defending four times in 1909 alone, but didn't defend for two years after Jeffries. Willard defended against Moran a year after Havana, then not again until Dempsey nearly three and a half years later.

Tunney was on a one defense per year pace, as were Schmeling and Sharkey.

Carnera bucked this trend, defeating Loughran and Uzcudun in legitimate title defense wins during the eight months following his ascension in what youtube footage reveals to be a legitimate battering of Sharkey. Before a year had elapsed, he would risk it yet again against Max Baer. For being a fighting HW Champion with the highest activity rate of any titleholder since 1910, and until 1938, I believe Primo belongs in Canastota.

Max Baer lost to Braddock a year after dethroning Carnera. If Max had successfully defended, I don't think he would have gotten much credit at all for who many saw as a sub par challenger. Of course Braddock sat on the throne for over two years before getting knocked out by Louis, who it can be very legitimately opined was a less worthy challenger than Schmeling. (And Joe himself seemed to agree, saying, "I ain't champion till I beats Smellin!'")

When measured against the tenures of Corbett, Fitz, latter reign Johnson, Willard, Tunney, Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer and Braddock, I think Dempsey's stretch with the championship measures up reasonably well. He did defend twice in 1920, once in 1921, and twice in 1923. Two years of inactivity did hamper his performance against Tommy Gibbons, competitive resharpening that proved valuable in dealing with Firpo. Three years of mothballs was far too much time to lose for Tunney though, when a younger Mauler was so compromised after two years for Shelby.

Jack was justifiably criticized and ridiculed at the time for not defending between 1923 and 1926, but it is a business, and he was the highest paid athlete of 1925 despite not putting the title on the line. Yes, he should have defended against Wills, but Harry himself said it wasn't Dempsey's fault, and Manassa Jack did qualify for a Tunney rematch by knocking out the conqueror of Wills. (The controversial ending of Dempsey-Sharkey is unfortunate, but Dempsey's power was starting to tell with eight rounds to go, and a longer contest would have benefited him greatly in his last title challenge.)
Good post.

Great call on Primo Carnera, he's been badly under-appreciated. The man took his craft seriously, it's a shame more observers haven't given him his dues.
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:06 PM   #24
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Why are those articles the be all and end all of analysis for Dempsey? An old post:

The earliest reference i've seen to Greb's calling out Jack is in 1918, before Dempsey was even champion. This was directly after one of Greb's wins over Battling Levinksy, who Greb would beat six (i think?) times out of six. Greb's challanged went unanswered and Dempsey matched Levinsky in Novemeber of that year, knocking him out in three - Greb wasn't boxing in Novemeber due to injury, but was busy again in January, Dempsey - deliberately or not - having by-passed Greb in favour of a fighter Greb had proven his superiority too and then treading water until his challange against Willard. Greb remained busy, never knowing what it meant for a fighter to rest on his laurels.

Greb's run at the HW title had begun with Willard in possesion of the title. In 1918 he had beaten Billy Miske, but it was 1919 that he would really stake his claim, against Bill Brennan, described by the Pittsburgh Post as "the best man in his class in the country[outside of Jack Dempsey]". The two met first in New York in Febuary - Greb was Brennan's total master, some papers scoring this fight a shut-out. Brennan apparantly was claiming that he was out of condition for this fight, and Greb being Greb, a re-match was granted. The Pittsburgh Post's headline for that fight: "Bill Brennan Beaten In Every Round". In spite of every concievable advantage in terms of size - height, reach and weight - Brennan was not in the fight, he was totally dominated.

The two met again 16 months before Dempsey would match Brennan for the HW title. Again, the fight was a one sided beating. The New York Times and the Washington Post both gave Greb "every single round". Frankly, it seems Brennan was not in Greb's class...but the title shot would go to Brennan.Brennan would tell journalist Paul Kennedy that "if Dempsey was fighting [Greb] instead of me, I would be on Greb" after his eventual fight with Jack.


It seems that there was work afoot to bring the two together almost as soon as Dempsey lifted his title, with promoters Jimmy Shelvin anbd Matt Hinkle both trying to land the fight. The Pittsburgh Post: "It is up to Dempsey. And it is going to be difficult for Dempsey to say "Go get a reputation for Greb's fought four fights to Dempsey's one, and licked as many, if not more HW's." The fight, of course, didn't come off. Instead, Greb would fight Miske, who Greb had already beaten a couple of times, including a fight that went 8-1-1 in Greb's favour according the Pittsburgh Post...is anyone finding this disturbing yet? Dempsey's decisions to match men that Greb has already crushed instead of Greb himself seems bizzare to me...


And it's not over yet. After apparently mastering Dempsey in sparring, Greb would crush Gibbons "manhandled him gleefully and semed to get a deal of satisfaction out of it", and he also did better against Meehan than Demspey did.


Miske, Brennan and Gibbons all get title shots


But no title fight for Greb.

Why not?




Dempsey himself admitted to being scared of Langford, when he was a youngster. By the time he was champ, Langford was old.

Still, he would have been a better opponent than the absolutely nobody Dempsey fought for however long he just didn't bother.

Personally, I think Greb might have beaten him over the ten round distance.
so what you are saying is, "Ray Arcel incorrect and you are correct".. ?.. Thos articles i put up to show what legendary trainers and historians thought of Jack Dempsey because none of them come out with anything like what you are posting here.. you are forgetting that Dempsey actually wanted to fight Greb if there was demand for the fight saying. "It is possible that I might get a match with Harry Greb," he said, "and if I do and there is a call or a demand for it, I surely will take it.".. throughout Dempsey's title reign Greb lost to Gene Tunney on 3 occasions and dropped a decision to Tommy Loughran.. as great as Harry Greb was IMO he would stand no chance against Jack Dempsey in a championship fight wearing 4oz gloves not the 16oz they used when sparring each other.
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:39 PM   #25
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so what you are saying is, "Ray Arcel incorrect and you are correct".. ?.. Thos articles i put up to show what legendary trainers and historians thought of Jack Dempsey because none of them come out with anything like what you are posting here.. you are forgetting that Dempsey actually wanted to fight Greb if there was demand for the fight saying. "It is possible that I might get a match with Harry Greb," he said, "and if I do and there is a call or a demand for it, I surely will take it.".. throughout Dempsey's title reign Greb lost to Gene Tunney on 3 occasions and dropped a decision to Tommy Loughran.. as great as Harry Greb was IMO he would stand no chance against Jack Dempsey in a championship fight wearing 4oz gloves not the 16oz they used when sparring each other.

If Ray Arcel doesn't say Dempsey ducked Greb it didn't happen?

Look, I can see you are upset. Sometimes these things can be difficult. I don't know if Greb would have beaten Dempsey or not. I know people who saw them both and fought them both thought Greb would beat him. And the reverse was true too.

What I know is that Greb did enough to be considered qualified for a title shot by the press of his era. I know that he pursued a fight with Dempsey for 7 years. I know that he handled Dempsey in sparring.

And I know the fight didn't happen.
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:13 PM   #26
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

The fact Jack Dempsey didn't fight Harry Wills or Harry Greb, the two outstanding and overwhelming # 1 and # 2 contenders of his era, automatically rates this a C at best. The poster who gave Jack Dempsey a B + must have taken one too many bong rips this morning.
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:37 PM   #27
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The fact Jack Dempsey didn't fight Harry Wills or Harry Greb, the two outstanding and overwhelming # 1 and # 2 contenders of his era, automatically rates this a C at best. The poster who gave Jack Dempsey a B + must have taken one too many bong rips this morning.

What grade would you give Liston's reign ?
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:43 PM   #28
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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I don't think there was an awful lot of demand or clamour for a Dempsey-Greb fight, rightly or wrongly.

Greb was chasing the middleweight and light-heavyweight champions at the same time too, and making fights with some one or other on a super-busy schedule.
Ironically, perhaps he would have got more support for a shot at Dempsey had he been less active and done more talking or sulking or something.
A couple of observations : Greb was so damn active during those days, that there wasn't a ground swell demand for the 160 pound dynamo to fight Jack Dempsey. I seldom ,as a boy read about Dempsey refusing to fight Greb,it
became a source of conversation many years later IMO. Why in the world would Jack Kearns,want this bout ? If Dempsey KO'd Greb, [and Greb in statements admitted that,"after 5 or more rounds Jack would kill me "] ,
the boxing world would cry out, "Dempsey's expected to ko middleweights,
for crying out loud ". It was a no win situation for Dempsey and Kearns..
Of course Dempsey never fought Harry Wills, though they signed for a bout for promoter Floyd Fitzpatrick, which was canceled because Fitzpatrick
couldn't come up with the money,and Harry Wills pocketed the deposit money. So Dempsey always get the rap for this cancellation, even though
the prime Dempsey would have been a prohibitive favorite to win, when Jack Sharkey beat Wills and Paolino Uzcudun kod Wills, soon after, most likely proved...
What is amazing is that the 160 pound, "seven year itch ", Greb was even considered in this post,as being the best oponent for the Heavyweight Dempsey,at that time !
Like wanting to match-up a Marvin Hagler or Carlos Monzon ,with a prime Joe Louis. So highly is Harry Greb rated...Amazing man was Greb to EVEN fight 300 bouts...His record and unique style can never be duplicated...
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:59 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
Don't forget you could also make a case that he didn't fight Sam Langford - and he stated that "Langford would flatten me."
Yes Dempsey during the John Lester Johnson time when Dempsey was still a youngster, he did say that" Langford would flatten me ".His manager at that time John the Barber,was a greedy mgr, who was not concerned with young
Dempsey's welfare. But along came Jack Kearns who developed young Dempsey into the " Manassa Mauler, we know today...And the rest is history !!!
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:22 PM   #30
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Why in the world would Jack Kearns,want this bout ? If Dempsey KO'd Greb, [and Greb in statements admitted that,"after 5 or more rounds Jack would kill me "] ,
the boxing world would cry out, "Dempsey's expected to ko middleweights,
for crying out loud "...
This is often repeated and needs to be dealt with.

Greb was indeed 160lb champion, but most of his best work was done over that weight. In short, much of his career was spent boxing at LHW.

Carpantier, too, was a LHW, quite possiby one that was "naturally smaller" (for whatever that is worth) than Greb, having fought at 122lbs earlier in his career. However, somehow, in spite of the fact that he was less good, in spite of the fact that he was less qualified, he somehow made a fight with Dempsey.

All the objections that could hold for Greb hold for Carpantier. I'd say they pretty much obliterate them.

Greb was a better fighter, a world champion and American. Carpantier ended up nearly even money against Dempsey. This means either a) a smaller fighter was seen as a valid challenge and Greb should have been allowed to fight or b) the epic publicity machine of the time convinced an at first sceptical public that Carpantier could do the job and Greb's size was not a bar to his being allowed to fight Dempsey.

Either way, non-existent argument IMO.
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Boxing News 24 Forum 2013