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View Poll Results: How would do you grade Dempseys championship reign?
A+ 2 3.39%
A 1 1.69%
A- 2 3.39%
B+ 5 8.47%
B 18 30.51%
B- 5 8.47%
C+ 7 11.86%
C 7 11.86%
C- 7 11.86%
D 5 8.47%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-17-2011, 02:41 PM   #31
JAB5239
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Yeah, there was considerable interest in the fight and we've actually been through this before.

However, there was nothing like the clamour there was for him to fight Wills, if that's what you mean
This is very true on both accounts. There was a poll done by a Pittsburgh newspaper on who the public wanted to see Dempsey fight next (I think it was in 1922, but I'd have to look it up to be sure) and Wills took first in the poll with Greb second and everyone else in the distance. I see know reason the rest of the country wouldn't have followed suit if Grebs hometown voted Wills first.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:42 PM   #32
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
This is very true on both accounts. There was a poll done by a Pittsburgh newspaper on who the public wanted to see Dempsey fight next (I think it was in 1922, but I'd have to look it up to be sure) and Wills took first in the poll with Greb second and everyone else in the distance. I see know reason the rest of the country wouldn't have followed suit if Grebs hometown voted Wills first.
Unless this is a different one to the one I posted, Wills was actually first by a rate of better than 3-1 and everybody else was in the distance.

Greb was third.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:46 PM   #33
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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Unless this is a different one to the one I posted, Wills was actually first by a rate of better than 3-1 and everybody else was in the distance.

Greb was third.
Maybe Im wrong. Wills did win by a good amount, but I thought Greb was second. Who was second in the poll you're referring to?
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:48 PM   #34
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

Gibbons.

Firpo recieved something like 100 votes, thousands less than Wills.
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:56 PM   #35
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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Gibbons.

Firpo recieved something like 100 votes, thousands less than Wills.
What year was your poll (like I said, I may be wrong on the year for the poll I cited by memory) because Greb had won 2 out of 3 against Gibbons by sometime in 1922?
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Old 05-17-2011, 02:57 PM   #36
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What year was your poll (like I said, I may be wrong on the tear for the poll I cited by memory) because Greb had won 2 out of 3 against Gibbons by sometime in 1922?
I can't be arsed looking just now, i've posted it here several times before.

When you uncover yours, be sure and put it up.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:09 PM   #37
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I can't be arsed looking just now, i've posted it here several times before.

When you uncover yours, be sure and put it up.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:11 PM   #38
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

Poll added!
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:28 PM   #39
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

A+? Lmao!!
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:33 PM   #40
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quarry a fundamentalist, man. There is no getting through to dudes like that.


I think it's amongst the worst of the guys who held the title for a serious period. Maybe better than Johnson's. Maybe better than Sullivan's. Other than that, I would say it's not better than any decent title run.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:35 PM   #41
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey title reign Let's look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

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This is often repeated and needs to be dealt with.

Greb was indeed 160lb champion, but most of his best work was done over that weight. In short, much of his career was spent boxing at LHW.

Carpentier, too, was a LHW, quite possibly one that was "naturally smaller" (for whatever that is worth) than Greb, having fought at 122lbs earlier in his career. However, somehow, in spite of the fact that he was less good, in spite of the fact that he was less qualified, he somehow made a fight with Dempsey.

All the objections that could hold for Greb hold for Carpentier. I'd say they pretty much obliterate them.

Greb was a better fighter, a world champion and American. Carpentier ended up nearly even money against Dempsey. This means either a) a smaller fighter was seen as a valid challenge and Greb should have been allowed to fight or b) the epic publicity machine of the time convinced an at first sceptical public that Carpentier could do the job and Greb's size was not a bar to his being allowed to fight Dempsey.

Either way, non-existent argument IMO.
Carp had been the European HW Champion since June 1913, ONE MONTH AFTER HARRY STARTED HIS PROFESSIONAL CAREER! He took the EBU LHW honors in February 1913, and the European MW Title in February 1912, ALMOST A YEAR BEFORE GREB BEGAN HIS PROFESSIONAL CAREER! (Prior to that, the Orchid Man was EBU WW Champ in 1911.) While Harry was building up his legend through the advantage of living in a neutral country, Carp was inactive due to valorous wartime service.

Did Greb deserve shots ahead of Miske and Brennan? Probably, but Jack had apparently made pacts with KO Bill and the Thunderbolt that whichever of them got to the title first would afford the other a shot at it. There's no way Harry deserved a shot ahead of Carp though, who had waited the better part of two decades and survived the deadliest war in human history to get to this point. On top of that, the fact remains that they did combine to produce that inaugural million dollar gate, a live audience of 80,183, and more listening on radio.

Harry had 130 fights during Carp's wartime hiatus, but I have too many war veterans in my family (including a few who were gassed in Europe during WW I) to even contemplate suggesting that Harry should have gotten a title shot ahead of Carp. I just can't. Take away WW I, and Carp could well get a heavyweight shot before Greb's 1917 rise to MW contention. (That's assuming Willard could have been any kind of fighting champion.)

Yes, I agree with those who believe Harry was the P4P GOAT, and posted opinions saying so well before Stonehands published his series finale "The God of War." But Carp had waited too long already, in an era where the LHW Champion was frequently viewed as a top HW contender. He had held the EBU HW Title for eight years and defended it twice after the war ended. Harry was never a regional champion at the HW level. Taken within the context of 1921, Carp had established a HW pedigree which made him an acceptable challenger for Dempsey in public opinion.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:39 PM   #42
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

JAB & McGrain... you have no evidence to back-up anything you are claiming here only your own assumptions.
1/. if a poll was held in Manchester in 2008 asking who should be next to fight David Haye - Wlad or Hatton the poll would read 4-1 Hatton.

2/. What you repeatedly leave out of your argument is that when Greb sparred with Dempsey they wore 16oz gloves not 4oz used in prizefights.

3/. you ignore the fact that Gene Tunney beat Greb and had to wait years for his title fight with Dempsey.

4/. you both claim Dempsey said he was afraid of Langford when he was in his youth yet never acknowledge Langford saying "Dempsey was the greatest fighter he ever seen" or that Langford said "Dempsey would beat Harry Wills" whom he fought many times over.

5/. you ignore the claim of Harry Greb that in his own words he thought Dempsey would beat him.

everything you both have claimed on this topic is only your own assumptions with those assumptions never being voiced by any boxing historian and you ignore any links which show historians rate Dempsey as the greatest fighter who ever lived yet you post links by those same historians to back-up your arguments on other topics
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:40 PM   #43
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Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

I found the poll.

It was done by the New York daily with a cartoon from the Pittsburgh post depicting sever fighters including Greb and Will. The poll went
1. Wills - 4835 votes
2. Bill Brennen - 1320 votes
3. Greb -725 votes
4. Jess Willard - 700 votes
5. Georges Carpentier - 360 vote
6. Jack Johnson - 305 votes
7. Gene Tunney - 298 votes
8. Luis Firpo - 112 votes
9. Tommy Gibbons - 98 votes
10. Billy Miske - 88 votes
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:45 PM   #44
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3/. you ignore the fact that Gene Tunney beat Greb and had to wait years for his title fight with Dempsey.
You ignore the fact that that series could very well be 2-2-1 if you wanted to read all the newspaper accounts of the day. You're stuck on boxrec, buy a clue.
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:48 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
Carp had been the European HW Champion since June 1913, ONE MONTH AFTER HARRY STARTED HIS PROFESSIONAL CAREER! He took the EBU LHW honors in February 1913, and the European MW Title in February 1912, ALMOST A YEAR BEFORE GREB BEGAN HIS PROFESSIONAL CAREER! (Prior to that, the Orchid Man was EBU WW Champ in 1911.) While Harry was building up his legend through the advantage of living in a neutral country, Carp was inactive due to valorous wartime service.

Did Greb deserve shots ahead of Miske and Brennan? Probably, but Jack had apparently made pacts with KO Bill and the Thunderbolt that whichever of them got to the title first would afford the other a shot at it. There's no way Harry deserved a shot ahead of Carp though, who had waited the better part of two decades and survived the deadliest war in human history to get to this point. On top of that, the fact remains that they did combine to produce that inaugural million dollar gate, a live audience of 80,183, and more listening on radio.

Harry had 130 fights during Carp's wartime hiatus, but I have too many war veterans in my family (including a few who were gassed in Europe during WW I) to even contemplate suggesting that Harry should have gotten a title shot ahead of Carp. I just can't. Take away WW I, and Carp could well get a heavyweight shot before Greb's 1917 rise to MW contention. (That's assuming Willard could have been any kind of fighting champion.)

Yes, I agree with those who believe Harry was the P4P GOAT, and posted opinions saying so well before Stonehands published his series finale "The God of War." But Carp had waited too long already, in an era where the LHW Champion was frequently viewed as a top HW contender. He had held the EBU HW Title for eight years and defended it twice after the war ended. Harry was never a regional champion at the HW level. Taken within the context of 1921, Carp had established a HW pedigree which made him an acceptable challenger for Dempsey in public opinion.
I don't agree with a great deal of this; nor do I care to argue it, reallly.

My point was that Greb's being "to small" to fight Dempsey because it's a "no win" situation is pretty much negated by the fact that he matched Carpantier, who weighed in at 168 for his loss to Jeanette, and 170 for his DQ win over Smith.

If Greb is to small, Carpantier is to small.

If Carpantier is big enough to fight, so is Greb.

Can't have it both ways.
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