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Old 09-24-2013, 09:52 AM   #121
mcvey
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
None of which has anything to do with allegations that Liston was a serial cheater.
I've never made any such allegations.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:54 AM   #122
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

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Show me where I implied Machen was mentally ill with schizophrenia when he fought Liston.
You can't, because I didn't. If you mis-interpreted my statement that way, that's no biggie with me, so I'm not sure why you're arguing.
I've already explained my comment.

And, for your information, I double checked the date he was committed to the mental institution and checked what he was diagnosed with before I even mentioned it, nevermind before you got involved. Because I considered it a serious matter to bring up in the conversation, and believe in getting my facts straight.

I would have absolutely no problem admitting the mistake, but I'm afraid I didn't make one. You did.
No I didn't, I checked when Machen fought Liston and when he was committed for treatment, there is a two years time difference between them.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:02 AM   #123
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

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No I didn't, I checked when Machen fought Liston and when he was committed for treatment, there is a two years time difference between them.
Yes, I checked that too, before I even mentioned his illnes. Neither of us is mistaken on that point.
Your mistake was your misunderstanding of my statement, and then you accuse me of not admitting my mistake.
It's no biggie to me.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:28 AM   #124
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

I've went back and watched Listons bout with Machen and both Williams fights. I don't see any time where Machen appears in distress although he did state that although in pain he did not allow Liston to see he was impaired. He did seem to fight the same style for all 12 rounds.

I see no issue in the second Willams bout.

The first Willams bout is curious. Williams is beating Liston for two rounds...hurting him...outboxing him. All of a sudden things change in the third and there is a point where Willams wipes his eyes with his gloves. Film quality is poor so I can't see blinking or any very obvious signs......there is however a distinct shift in how Williams is fighting and Liston then scores a ko.

Since yesterday I have read one interview with Dundee where he states whatever got into Alis eyes may have gotten first onto Alis forehead.....then dripped down with sweat into his eyes. He felt for sure it was Monsels solution used to treat the gash on Listons cheekbone. Monsels solution when in contact with the eyes can cause burning, irritation and redness.
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:33 PM   #125
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
I've went back and watched Listons bout with Machen and both Williams fights. I don't see any time where Machen appears in distress although he did state that although in pain he did not allow Liston to see he was impaired. He did seem to fight the same style for all 12 rounds.

I see no issue in the second Willams bout.

The first Willams bout is curious. Williams is beating Liston for two rounds...hurting him...outboxing him. All of a sudden things change in the third and there is a point where Willams wipes his eyes with his gloves. Film quality is poor so I can't see blinking or any very obvious signs......there is however a distinct shift in how Williams is fighting and Liston then scores a ko.

Since yesterday I have read one interview with Dundee where he states whatever got into Alis eyes may have gotten first onto Alis forehead.....then dripped down with sweat into his eyes. He felt for sure it was Monsels solution used to treat the gash on Listons cheekbone. Monsels solution when in contact with the eyes can cause burning, irritation and redness.
Monsels solution is a hemostatic substance made of iron sulphate it sets like concrete in a cut, cauterizing the skin it is easily detected and has been banned for many years because it has to be chiseled out after the fight ,and it promotes bad scarring of the injured area.
The last time I saw it used was by Matt Franklin's corner when he fought John Conteh the first time. Liston's corner is widely suspected of having put Tiger Balm Linament on his gloves whether it is true, quien sabe?
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:44 PM   #126
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

Argue all you want about Liston's abilities, but one thing is for sure; Ali never been a prime Liston. Yet the Ali fights are all the average guy knows about. Sonny beat Williams and Folley in their prime. Ali beat them very impressively later on, when both were past it!

A prime Liston is a fight for anyone, in my opinion.
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:09 PM   #127
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

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Argue all you want about Liston's abilities, but one thing is for sure; Ali never been a prime Liston. Yet the Ali fights are all the average guy knows about. Sonny beat Williams and Folley in their prime. Ali beat them very impressively later on, when both were past it!

A prime Liston is a fight for anyone, in my opinion.
Head to head prime Liston is a monster for most heavyweight champions to deal with imo. The Sonny who beat Williams would have given Ali a good nights work ,imo.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:09 PM   #128
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

Hi..im the original poster of the question for this thread
shame some you started arguing ! but thanks for manh good answers...
its all very interesting.
Someone made the point that sadly Liston is best remembered only for the Ali fights
which sadly is true.Whatever else he was past his best by then.
When he fought Ali he hadnt had a serious competetive bout for several
years which when already in the veteran stage would not have helped.
Ali's speed was too much for him.
I am certain he took a dive in tge second fight.
It would have been great to find out his real age.
Ali spent much of his early reign beating fighters that Liston
had already beaten.
Thanks again for your feedback.
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:18 AM   #129
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

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Every hwt champion gets knocked down. Ali was hit by a huge left hook right on the button and guess what? He rose immediately and went to his corner. So of course he was hurt...he had no time to recover...he had JUST gotten up! Very next round Ali destroys Cooper for the stoppage. Sign of an all time great is coming back after being hit and hurt. Just more and more silly stuff from the Russian fellow. You do realize Ali is rated by every known expert I am aware of as at the very least the second greatest hwt champion ever. Only Louis is rated above Ali by some.
Got revived by smelling salts, though. Disqualification time!
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:30 AM   #130
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

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Got revived by smelling salts, though. Disqualification time!
Some corner's still use it though it's been banned a long time.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:10 AM   #131
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by markclitheroe View Post
Hi..im the original poster of the question for this thread
shame some you started arguing ! but thanks for manh good answers...
its all very interesting.
Someone made the point that sadly Liston is best remembered only for the Ali fights
which sadly is true.Whatever else he was past his best by then.
When he fought Ali he hadnt had a serious competetive bout for several
years which when already in the veteran stage would not have helped.
Ali's speed was too much for him.
I am certain he took a dive in tge second fight.
It would have been great to find out his real age.
Ali spent much of his early reign beating fighters that Liston
had already beaten.
Thanks again for your feedback.
It is difficult to Gage exactly how great Liston was. It is easier to imagine how good he might have been than actually know. His prime was short.

He breezed through Williams and harris but neither had the best resume.

Machen and Foley were good wins but all champions should have wins like this on their back catalogue. Jack SHarkey had wins as good.

All that stands out is the Patterson wins. Let's examine those. of all the rated fighters Floyd faced (and they outnumber the top class men Liston ever fought ten fold) nobody else did that to Floyd. Either Liston was that good or Floyd was that bad both times ....or Sonny just had a hex over Patterson.

Personally, for what ever reason I don't think Patterson could perform against Liston. I think he gave Floyd the creeps.

Listons age comes into question only when he lost. After Patterson came the ALi fights where he went rusty after having too many short fights for too long. His title resume is not good. 3 one sided one round fights (2-1) and the corner retirement.
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:37 PM   #132
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

good points Choklab...i havent been a member very long..but hsve noticed you make sensible well thought out posts...
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:18 PM   #133
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Default Re: Sonny Liston

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good points Choklab...i havent been a member very long..but hsve noticed you make sensible well thought out posts...
Many thanks'
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