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Old 06-16-2014, 10:05 PM   #76
FlyingFrenchman
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Default Re: Why is Leonard ranked #2 welter?

Sure, I'd put Armstrong ahead of Napoles as well.
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Old 06-16-2014, 10:06 PM   #77
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Default Re: Why is Leonard ranked #2 welter?

Armstrong over Leonard? I couldn't really argue with that.
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:05 PM   #78
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Default Re: Why is Leonard ranked #2 welter?

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You're fvcking crazy dude! It's all opinion... this whole forum, any all-time ranking list. Nothing can really be proven.

Just because one fighter has more wins, or was a World Champion longer, or whatever criteria you want to use... it doesn't mean (or prove)that one fighter was better than the other.

Riddick Bowe beat Evander Holyfield (W12) once and lost to Holyfield (L12) once in HW World title bouts. In defenses he stopped a washed up Michael Dokes KO1 and journeyman Jesse Ferguson KO2. In WBO HW World title fights he beat Herbie Hide KO6 and Jorge Gonzalez KO6. Other than the win over Holyfield it really isn't all that impressive... but you'd be an idiot if you didn't think that a prime Bowe had the ability to give any HW in history a tough fight. I'm not going to rank Tommy Burns ahead of him just because Burns had more title defenses.

Back to Leonard.

The TKO over Benitez was a good stoppage in my opinion. What else can really be said about it? Had Benitez went the distance he would not have deserved the decision.

The stoppage over Hearns was seen as a bit early by many people. Hearns may have been able to continue a little longer but he was severely hurt. I don't know that he would have finished the round... and there was still one more round to go. I doubt Hearns could have stayed on his feet thru the remainder of the 14th round let alone the 15th round. With that in mind, add up your scorecard now, make sure you deduct the right amount of points from Hearns because I'm sure he'd go down again. 10-8 in the 13th, 10-8 or maybe even 10-7 in the 14th, 15th? 10-8 or 10-7??? That's if Hearns could have even been up at the end of the fight.

Duran? The first fight was close. A great performance by both. Leonard fought well but he didn't fight smart. Leonard was much better in the rematch even if Duran was not. He frustrated Duran and Duran quit (much like Liston did vs. Ali).

Hagler? Leonard had fought once at 154 and never at 160. He had not fought in 2 years and only had fought once in the previous 5 years (and didn't look very good in that fight). the fight was close but I thought Leonard won. A great win in my opinion.

Hearns II? Good fight and I thought Hearns did enough to win it. Hearns didn't go down but he was rocked and hurt in several rounds. Leonard did go down twice... that doesn't guarantee a win though.


Napoles fought the "great" Tony Perez 3 times, going life and death with him twice. He also lost to guys named Hilton Smith, Alfredo Urbina (he did stop Urbina in the 1st round of their rematch), and LC Morgan LKOby4 (he did stop Morgan 3 times though). He did stop a slightly faded Curtis Cokes twice and he decisioned a slightly past prime Emile Griffith. He was stopped in the 4th by Billy Backus (cuts caused by punches)... yes, he stopped Backus in their rematch. He went on to beat Hedgemon Lewis twice and a few others. He was also stopped two more times. Napoles was great but in my opinion it's clear that Leonard was better. You don't see names like Benitez, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler on Napoles resume. Sure... Cokes, Griffith, and Monzon are but they don't quit compare in my opinion and Monzon beat the shlt out of Napoles (no shame), while Leonard did get the win over Hagler.
so what does that mean, you think Leonard wouldve whipped Monzon?

why are you telling me about Hagler srl for?

Berbick - Ali is a great win too for Berbick but what kind of condition was Ali in?

was he the sharp, trim energetic and young Ali of the mid sixies or the fat lifeless slob of the early 80s?

this is why I never brag about Berbick, good as he was

and you shouldnt brag about Leonard either considering it took Hagler five years to digress physically enough for Leonard to come chasing after him

that's right, the guy he never wanted any part of, and suddenly he comes chasing after him after 5 years "come on Hagler I'm ready for you. dont listen to your wife and this talk of retirement, FIGHT ME!"

shame on you for bringing it up. dont you people ever feel any shame?

you try and pretend nothing fishy is going on, or that Hagler looks the same as always. This is why I throw in that quote from the fight, the one you liars always ignore

even more than that, you people put on an act that it was Leonard's style & versatility that finally brought Hagler's reign to an end and Hagler's decline had no impact of Ray's decision to unretire and select Hagler as his first comeback opponent, not willing to risk a fight with washed up Hagler with Curry who they had to talk out of taking a fight with Hagler

you stupid ignorant liars


then, you continue the decepton as you always do with "the stoppage of Benitez was a good one. it was legitimate"

that's crap too. I'm not even a fan of Wilfred but stoppage was BS no matter what you say or want me to believe

becuz my eyes dont lie to me. YOU DO

then you try tearing down Napoles' image saying "yeah he beat a few average joes (which I just happened to look up somewhere ) then lost to a few average Joes"

you neglect to mention however that Jose did not have the luxury of weeding out his opponents and had turned pro in 1958 before winning the title eleven years later and held onto it till 1975, something your man would NEVER have been able to do

so throw out passive lamb Benitez and way over the hill ready for pasture Hagler and what do you have?

I also wouldnt count the loss to Stracey if Napoles was at the end of his rope ready to be knocked off which you wouldnt know about anyways since you never even saw it

The two are just cut from a different cloth. If Ray had more of a career instead of just SETTLING (his fans are the same way) and DONE MORE with his career, I'd agree with you

but his career is just too short and lacking, and forces people like you into using deception to embellish his resume while painting a negative picture of the opposing career of his competition, an old trick they use in politics all the time and on rival Tijuana brothels

wins over Pryor & Curry would have done wonders for his reputation. he'd ever have to fight again and no one would ever question him

but becuz of the conspicuous timing of his comebacks, and the selection of opponents, his resume is a mess and an embarrassment with those spectacles, Lalonde especially
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Old 06-17-2014, 02:04 AM   #79
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Default Re: Why is Leonard ranked #2 welter?

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so what does that mean, you think Leonard wouldve whipped Monzon?

why are you telling me about Hagler srl for?

Berbick - Ali is a great win too for Berbick but what kind of condition was Ali in?

was he the sharp, trim energetic and young Ali of the mid sixies or the fat lifeless slob of the early 80s?

this is why I never brag about Berbick, good as he was

and you shouldnt brag about Leonard either considering it took Hagler five years to digress physically enough for Leonard to come chasing after him

that's right, the guy he never wanted any part of, and suddenly he comes chasing after him after 5 years "come on Hagler I'm ready for you. dont listen to your wife and this talk of retirement, FIGHT ME!"

shame on you for bringing it up. dont you people ever feel any shame?

you try and pretend nothing fishy is going on, or that Hagler looks the same as always. This is why I throw in that quote from the fight, the one you liars always ignore

even more than that, you people put on an act that it was Leonard's style & versatility that finally brought Hagler's reign to an end and Hagler's decline had no impact of Ray's decision to unretire and select Hagler as his first comeback opponent, not willing to risk a fight with washed up Hagler with Curry who they had to talk out of taking a fight with Hagler

you stupid ignorant liars


then, you continue the decepton as you always do with "the stoppage of Benitez was a good one. it was legitimate"

that's crap too. I'm not even a fan of Wilfred but stoppage was BS no matter what you say or want me to believe

becuz my eyes dont lie to me. YOU DO

then you try tearing down Napoles' image saying "yeah he beat a few average joes (which I just happened to look up somewhere ) then lost to a few average Joes"

you neglect to mention however that Jose did not have the luxury of weeding out his opponents and had turned pro in 1958 before winning the title eleven years later and held onto it till 1975, something your man would NEVER have been able to do

so throw out passive lamb Benitez and way over the hill ready for pasture Hagler and what do you have?

I also wouldnt count the loss to Stracey if Napoles was at the end of his rope ready to be knocked off which you wouldnt know about anyways since you never even saw it

The two are just cut from a different cloth. If Ray had more of a career instead of just SETTLING (his fans are the same way) and DONE MORE with his career, I'd agree with you

but his career is just too short and lacking, and forces people like you into using deception to embellish his resume while painting a negative picture of the opposing career of his competition, an old trick they use in politics all the time and on rival Tijuana brothels

wins over Pryor & Curry would have done wonders for his reputation. he'd ever have to fight again and no one would ever question him

but becuz of the conspicuous timing of his comebacks, and the selection of opponents, his resume is a mess and an embarrassment with those spectacles, Lalonde especially
I respect Napoles. I just think that Leonard was better. Get over it. Opinions are like aszholes... everybody has one, and most of them stink.

Hagler was not washed up vs. Leonard. I'm not saying he was at his all-time best, but there is no reason to think he was missing it by much. What is your criteria for this opinion? Leonard had fought just once in the previous 5 years, had never fought above 154, and had only fought over 147 once. He had not fought at all in the previous 3 years and didn't even look good in that fight. Hagler was a big favorite.

I'm not sure why you mentioned Berbick's win over Ali. Are you implying that Hagler was as past prime as Ali was vs. Berbick??? Wow!

Monzon? Another fighter who is greatly overrated on this forum and I would pick Leonard to beat him by decision. How many past prime fighters did he fight?
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Old 06-17-2014, 02:04 AM   #80
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Default Re: Why is Leonard ranked #2 welter?

Are you a big Julio Cesar Chavez Sr. fan as well. You seem like a guy who is impressed with quantity more than quality to me. I'm not saying JCC didn't beat some good fighters but lets face it, Greg Haugen was right... he did beat a lot of Tijuana taxi drivers.
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Old 06-17-2014, 03:32 AM   #81
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Default Re: Why is Leonard ranked #2 welter?

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I respect Napoles. I just think that Leonard was better. Get over it. Opinions are like aszholes... everybody has one, and most of them stink.



Hagler was not washed up vs. Leonard
. I'm not saying he was at his all-time best, but there is no reason to think he was missing it by much. What is your criteria for this opinion? Leonard had fought just once in the previous 5 years, had never fought above 154, and had only fought over 147 once. He had not fought at all in the previous 3 years and didn't even look good in that fight. Hagler was a big favorite.

I'm not sure why you mentioned Berbick's win over Ali. Are you implying that Hagler was as past prime as Ali was vs. Berbick??? Wow!

Monzon? Another fighter who is greatly overrated on this forum and I would pick Leonard to beat him by decision. How many past prime fighters did he fight?
what is my opinion for thinking it? the fact that I've seen more of him than you. That's one

The fact that I don't play dumb about it. That's two

The fact that I watched him in sparring two weeks prior to the fight and he looked like shit and was embarassed by his sparring partners. That's three

The fact that Leonard wanted no part of him five years before when Leonard had already been cleared to fight. That's four

The fact that after Hagler defeated Mugabi, Ray shouted out "I can beat Hagler" but never made such claims while doing commentary since Hagler's first defense. That's five

The fact that during the Hamsho fight of 1981, Ray kept claiming he "wanted Hagler" then but by the end of the fight backed out and dropped the subject. That's six


The fact that Ray came out of retirement after watching Hagler extended by Duran, but then re-retired when he wound up on his ass by some journeyman. That's seven

See? the problem wasnt his eye, it was his heart. He even said so "it just wasnt there"

big chicken needed another three years

and when you say things like "Hagler was not washed up vs. Leonard. I'm not saying he was at his all-time best, but there is no reason to think he was missing it by much. What is your criteria for this opinion?" you want to play these games, you're only kidding yourself. You're not kidding me.

reason eight, the tape itself round six. In the words of Tim Ryan "Sugar Ray said he was counting on the slowness of Hagler. he said that he lost alot of speed"

so why get Hagler with just a little bit of slip when you can get him with alot of slip and better your chances?

still interested in games?

reason nine "thanks for softening him up for me buddy" Ray Leonard to Juan Roldan

why would Ray want any part of prime Hagler if he had several chances to have a go at him and turned him down each time?

you going to use his claim his eye prevented him from fighting? he was cleared to fight in 1982 and fought till the age of 40

EXPLAIN THAT

You're just as stuck as that other poster Robert who started this morning and couldnt finish

you just asked me to explain myself and I did while you get away with things like "I respect Napoles. I just think Ray was better"

you set the bar low for yourself but high for others to help your case and we both know what that means

personally I dont think you can go on with this so I'll just let you leave with grace. We both know you're a big Leonard fan anyways
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Old 06-17-2014, 03:47 AM   #82
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Default Re: Why is Leonard ranked #2 welter?

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Are you a big Julio Cesar Chavez Sr. fan as well. You seem like a guy who is impressed with quantity more than quality to me. I'm not saying JCC didn't beat some good fighters but lets face it, Greg Haugen was right... he did beat a lot of Tijuana taxi drivers.
Julio is guilty of the same thing, being protected until he faced more serious challenges for big bucks and floundered, both against Taylor who I believe beat him, and more so Whitaker but the fix was in, and had his padded record protected with a draw

Same problem occurred when ray decided to take chances with norris, perhaps no longer having Mike Trainer whispering in his ear not to take these kinds of fights, and predictably wound up getting the worst of it

I'm not saying Chavez & Leonard arent good quality fighters, only that they are overrated and needed much help and manuvering in parts of their careers against certain fighters - Leonard agnst Hagler, & Nunn, who he skipped altogether

You also have Chavez avoiding certain fighters, most notably Hector Camacho when the two of them were competing in the same division at the same time with Hector always at the top, whom Julio played second fiddle to

Are you kidding? Hector with his lightning speed, his movement, his guile, his defense wouldve been five steps ahead of a tortured Chavez

Like the 1987 figt with Hagler, JC's bout with Camacho was way past due and so neither really amounted do much. they both have wins over name fighters but Berbick also has win over Ali for what that's worth
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