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Old 11-29-2012, 03:05 PM   #76
Seamus
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Tony Tubbs
He certainly deserves a mention.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:12 PM   #77
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
"none of the white fighters would face them"

I'm wonder if this is fair. I think the top black heavies of the 1890's were Jackson, Armstrong, Griffin, and Childs. Jeffries beat the first three (Jeff handed Griffin his only recorded loss in the '90's)--I will add to this in a separate post.

*The SF Chronicle ran an article in 1896 which claimed Jeffries had ko'd Childs in two rounds. This is in dispute, but who knows? There might have been such a fight in a small club somewhere.

"Childs was appreciably heavier and more muscular than either"

This is a sweeping statement to make of men with so few photos, and only a few weights given and those generally w/o being weighed in. Even if true, it doesn't prove much as Choynski ko'd Childs and Fitz was a much better fighter than either of them, losing legitimately only to the huge Jeffries over a 15 year period while winning three championships.

"Childs was an 8 fight middle when he fought Creedan"

Childs was 27. He probably had had many more than 8 fights. The records are just incomplete. His first recorded fight has him ko'ing the world class George LaBlanche when he was 25. Just doesn't seem as likely that this was his first fight as that earlier ones where not recorded in the newspapers.
There are photos of Childs , he was very well developed, big shoulders chest, and bulging biceps, compared to Choynski ,and Fitz ,he was Mike Weaver. We are talking 1900 and on when Corbett challenged Jeffries , not the 1890's
The promoter of the Johnson/ Martin contest,McCarey challenged Jeffries to meet the winner for a $15 ,000 guarantee . A backer for Sam McVey offered $18,000 for Jeffries to defend against him, I've posted these before.


Oh I see Childs had many more fights but Jeffries was of course a novice in his career , every time someone is matched hypothetically with Jeffries we get the same BS, he was a babe in arms, and they had all many more contests than are recorded.
For the record Jeffries had the same amount of fights as Corbett when they met.
People drivel on about how Jeffries was green when he met fighters.
Lorraine
Long
Van Buskirk
Baker
Ruhlin were all novices too.

Goddard was 40 years old.
Armstrong had 19 fights to Jeffries 11 Huge experience gap.
Finnegan 10 to his 14
Munro 13 to his 21
Finnegan 10 to his 17.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:45 PM   #78
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

Just rewatched Holmes v spoon.

Can't believe I ever found 7 rounds for Larry before. Spoon beats him at pretty much every juncture he outjabs him outpunches him, outdefends him and basically proved his superiority over 12 rounds.

It's not a huge stretch to say he was the best in the world at this point until he lost to Thomas who lost to berbick who lost to the youngest champ in he history.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:34 PM   #79
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

I was just looking at full figure phots of Childs taken in 1900. The writer describes him as 5'9 and 165. That is about what he looks like, given a height of 5' 9".

I don't dispute that Jeffries should have fought Jack Johnson between 1903 and 1905 and deserves to be criticized for not fighting him.

I also think Jeffries probably had fights, perhaps quite a few fights, early in his career which do not appear on his record. I agree with you that perhaps too much is made of how green Jeff was.

That said, he did beat the top men up to about 1903. No one beats absolutely everyone but Childs as a 165 lber seems an unlikely candidate to be put in against the huge champion, especially as he had not beaten a really top heavyweight. This is no criticism of Childs. At his size, he did well to beat some second tier guys.

I stick with my belief was that not only was Corbett at the time seen as a logical contender, but because of his size and skill, he looks in restrospect as a proper opponent for Jeff.

I think Jeff would have recieved a ton more criticism if he had not faced Corbett but had instead fought Childs.

The article I just read listed these sizes

Childs 5' 9" 165 lbs
Joe Butler 6' 170 lbs
George Byers 5' 8" 150 lbs

Last edited by edward morbius; 12-01-2012 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:33 PM   #80
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Jeffries was happy to beat Armstrong by dec over 10 rds, but he did not face Childs who had kod Armstrong in 2 rds 7 months earlier, beaten him previously to that ,and would stop him again ayear later
I have never found any media interest in a match between Jeffries and Childs. There was plenty of interest in matching him with Martin, but none with Childs or Byers.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:09 PM   #81
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

[quote=mcvey;14285351]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
In hindsight, I seriously doubt it.

The coloured heavyweight champion when Jeffries won the title was George Byers, who lost to Tommy West. He was simply not in the class of Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Corbett or McCoy.

Jeffries didn't fight the top coloured contenders at this stage, because none of them were in the championship class.[/quote]



Jeffries didnt fight them because no one insisted he did, as a challenger, he was happy to fight lesser blacks such as Armstrong whom he beat by 10rds dec in 1898 .That same year Childs stopped Armstrong twice. In fact Childs had better results over the same opponents, Henry Baker went 9rds with Jeffries, Childs stopped him in 3. Are you seriously telling me Corbett had better current form that Childs in 1900 ?

Which black challengers did Corbett,McCoy, Fitz,and Sharkey beat to demonstrate this superiority?

Lets be honest here, once he won the title, nothing on God's earth would get Jeffries in the ring with a black challenger .

McVey,

Once again you’re mistaken. Jeffries as champion meet Hank Griffin, who was had beaten Jack Johnson recently. Jeffries won an easy 4 round match; flooring Griffin a few times before he went into survival mode. Had Griffin somehow managed to win via KO, he’s the next lineal champion.

So you see, for the right money and terms, Jeffries would meet a black challenger like Griffin. What fighters say, and what they do when enough money is offered are two very different things.
I suppose Corrbett didn't prove anything to you when he fought Peter Jackson, and Fitz proved little when he beat the the Black Pearl.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:48 PM   #82
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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I'm not asking about a Jeffries versus Witherspoon fight, just who you'd rank higher - as the better, more proven, more impressive fighter.
In strict boxing terms.

I would say that "Greatness" almost always requires imagination. It's all fairytales.
"Greatness" is nothing, H2H is everything.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:12 PM   #83
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

I keep thinking back to this thread.

Spoon probably has the greatest performance out of these two as well as the worst.

It's a shame coz looking at the time line the division was there for the taking.

The loss to smith hurts him but the loss to Thomas is bad also. Jeffries fought in a weaker division but atleast he remained head and shoulders above his peers.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:40 PM   #84
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

[quote=Mendoza;14297379]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post


McVey,

Once again you’re mistaken. Jeffries as champion meet Hank Griffin, who was had beaten Jack Johnson recently. Jeffries won an easy 4 round match; flooring Griffin a few times before he went into survival mode. Had Griffin somehow managed to win via KO, he’s the next lineal champion.

So you see, for the right money and terms, Jeffries would meet a black challenger like Griffin. What fighters say, and what they do when enough money is offered are two very different things.
I suppose Corrbett didn't prove anything to you when he fought Peter Jackson, and Fitz proved little when he beat the the Black Pearl.
Too convoluted and in pidgin to comment seriously on. " As champion meet Hank Griffin who was had etc" Is this code?


NB .When Griffin fought that 4 rounder with Jeffries he had not faced Johnson , look it up.
The fight is listed as a 4 rd No Contest. Not a title defence .

Griffin was fighting for a $100 forfeit if he survived the 4rds ,which he did. He was hardly going to exert himself unduly for $100 was he?

Corbett [one r,] would have proved something to me had he taken up one of Jackson's numerous challenges when he was champ , he didn't, he shamelessly ducked him.
Fitz ducked Jackson too.

" WHEN THERE ARE NO WHITE MEN LEFT TO FIGHT I WILL QUIT THE BUSINESS I AM DETERMINED NOT TO TAKE A CHANCE OF LOSING THE TITLE TO A NEGRO"
JAMES JACKSON JEFFRIES.


JEFFRIES was the most bitter and vociferous critic of Tommy Burns ,after Burns had lost his title to Johnson. See link below.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] jeffries&searchLimits=

Last edited by mcvey; 12-03-2012 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:19 PM   #85
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

In terms of skill level, spoon actually has a better resume than jeffries.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:28 PM   #86
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
I have never found any media interest in a match between Jeffries and Childs. There was plenty of interest in matching him with Martin, but none with Childs or Byers.
Seven months before Jeffries beat Armstrong by 10rds decision Childs had kod Armstrong in 2 rds.

Why did Jeffries not fight Childs instead of Armstrong?
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:50 PM   #87
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

Jeffries was world hwt champion and was rated and by some still is rated as one of the greatest fighters ever to live. Witherspoon was never worlds champion and you would need to be blind to rate him great at anything. It's not in any way a fair comparison. Better to compare spoon to Lou Nova or Buddy Baer in reality.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:58 PM   #88
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Jeffries was world hwt champion and was rated and by some still is rated as one of the greatest fighters ever to live. Witherspoon was never worlds champion and you would need to be blind to rate him great at anything. It's not in any way a fair comparison. Better to compare spoon to Lou Nova or Buddy Baer in reality.
Spoon was two times world champ actually.

He put on a better filmed performance than Jeffries ever did.

He beat better skilled opponents than Jeffries ever did also.

The comparison is obscure but valid.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:08 PM   #89
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Spoon was two times world champ actually.

He put on a better filmed performance than Jeffries ever did.

He beat better skilled opponents than Jeffries ever did also.

The comparison is obscure but valid.
For legacy I have to go with Jeffries.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:12 PM   #90
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Default Re: Who would you rate higher : Tim Witherspoon or Jim Jeffries ?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
For legacy I have to go with Jeffries.
I agree completely.

I rate Jeffries inside my top 20 and the same can't be said for spoon. I just felt houdinis criticism was weak.

Jeffries ruled an era and he beat the hof men who fought in that era. He was very highly regarded in his prime and his legacy is secure.
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