"The Duke" vs "Lights Out"?

[NoNeck]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Agreed 40 year old zombie holyfield was leagues better than prime Morrison

Couldn't fight a lick? He beat Tillis, Thomas, Hipp, Williams, Ruddock and Foreman

Come on man. I won't explain this shit to you.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by NoNeck

Come on man. I won't explain this shit to you.

None were prime but most were very good/great fighters. Morrison also took all of them bar Foreman out in dramatic fashion. If fat, slow, crude Peter could beat Toney why not Morrison who was better in every department bar chin.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Honestly, if Morrison fights on the back foot like he did against foreman Toney is gonna hugely struggle. I mean when Peter can outjab you it's gonna be a big ask to beat someone with quicker feet and quicker hands.

Obviously Toney has a punchers chance here and if he can time a huge right and pull the trigger he might be able to end matters with a good combination.

I pick Tommy to do it on points though.

Nice post agreed

[Mendoza]

Morrison would win.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

None were prime but most were very good/great fighters. Morrison also took all of them bar Foreman out in dramatic fashion. If fat, slow, crude Peter could beat Toney why not Morrison who was better in every department bar chin.

I'm not sure how or why you're comparing Peter with Morrison. They were very different fighters who brought different challenges to the ring.

Peter was crude but he was also a solid, solid dude and absolutely fearless. He also had a very underrated jab, heavy and consistently thrown. In their second fight he was pumping that thing in Toney's face every chance he could, doubling it and tripling it with meat behind every one. That was what gave Toney the most problems, not the power. He also brought an awkward clubbing offence to the ring, not crisp single knockout shots like Morrison could throw (off his left) but a bludgeoning caveman style that battered your face and ribs from both sides. Toney is great at avoiding single shots, but Peter was throwing everything at him, and using his huge base (and an illegal arm push) to pin Toney against the ropes to land.

Morrison didn't fight anything like that. He was a boxer puncher who liked to maintain his range, throw rangefinders from a bob and weave, then explode with one or two explosive hooks. His jab was decent, but it wasn't a major part of his game, and if he wasn't in a great position to land his power shots he tended to struggle. Against fighters who backed off from him he was fierce. Against those who stood their ground he was not so great. Toney will stand his ground and try to push Morrison back or get him to unload so he can land a counter shot.

Make no bones about it, Morrison is going to get countered here, and how he reacts to those shots mentally and physically is going to tell the story of the fight. On the other hand, if he can land like he was landing on Mercer, then I have a hard time seeing Toney take those shots without damage.

[Bobo]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

None were prime but most were very good/great fighters. Morrison also took all of them bar Foreman out in dramatic fashion. If fat, slow, crude Peter could beat Toney why not Morrison who was better in every department bar chin.

Yes well many more fighters can beat Toney of the 2nd Sam Peter fight than the Toney of the Holyfield or Booker fight. it depends which Toney comes in. a fat Toney has much less of a chance of beating Morrison while a better in shape and slightly younger Toney has a much greater chance of beating Morrison. Toney was in his best heavyweight shape for his first heavyweight fight, so if we're assuming the best Morrison vs the best HW version of Toney it's more difficult to choose the winner than say the best version of Morrison vs the Toney of the 2nd Sam Peter fight.

[PowerPuncher]

Morrison has the athleticism and power, a great left. But I'd expect Toney to dissect him with his ring smarts, the Toney of the Holyfield fight at least

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

None were prime but most were very good/great fighters. Morrison also took all of them bar Foreman out in dramatic fashion. If fat, slow, crude Peter could beat Toney why not Morrison who was better in every department bar chin.

Toney was shot for Peter, nowhere near the level of the Holyfield version

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Toney was shot for Peter, nowhere near the level of the Holyfield version

I'm not sure how much we can put down to James being past his best and how much was due to Peter improving regarding the outcome of that fight. Toney was worse than he was for the Holyfield and Ruiz bouts, but had not really had any truly abysmal performances prior to that fight for us to gauge how badly he had slipped, let alone say that he was shot. Peter put an absolute beating on him though. Definitely contributed to his decline.

[BUMPY KNUCKLES]

Toney at his best would out smart Morrison and win on points or stop him.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

I'm not sure how much we can put down to James being past his best and how much was due to Peter improving regarding the outcome of that fight. Toney was worse than he was for the Holyfield and Ruiz bouts, but had not really had any truly abysmal performances prior to that fight for us to gauge how badly he had slipped, let alone say that he was shot. Peter put an absolute beating on him though. Definitely contributed to his decline.

Well Toney was 38, lazy and didn't train properly for Peter. You can see a decline between the Holyfield and Ruiz fights. He probably lost the Rahman draw before Peter. In the first Peter he won but looked worse. It's a slow gradual decline.

I'm not sure who wins but I wouldn't use a Peter analogy, I would say if Morrison can be more mobile and pick his battle he stands a better chance but Toney is a master of suckering an opponent in. I think Morrison would fancy a tear up and with his speed and power I still can't outright pick Toney. But neither can I put much faith in Morrison, especially as the fight progresses.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Well Toney was 38, lazy and didn't train properly for Peter. You can see a decline between the Holyfield and Ruiz fights. He probably lost the Rahman draw before Peter. In the first Peter he won but looked worse. It's a slow gradual decline.

I'm not sure who wins but I wouldn't use a Peter analogy, I would say if Morrison can be more mobile and pick his battle he stands a better chance but Toney is a master of suckering an opponent in. I think Morrison would fancy a tear up and with his speed and power I still can't outright pick Toney. But neither can I put much faith in Morrison, especially as the fight progresses.

Yes there was definitely a slow gradual decline, I'm not disputing that. But I think too many people point to Toney being "shot" in explaining away his one sided loss to Peter, and don't give Peter the credit he deserves for his improvements between the first and second fights. He more or less implemented the same gameplan as Rahman did, maintain a solid stance, pump the jab, keep coming forward, batter Toney with hard rights to the body and the odd overhand. Could be a stylistic weakness of Toney's.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

Yes there was definitely a slow gradual decline, I'm not disputing that. But I think too many people point to Toney being "shot" in explaining away his one sided loss to Peter, and don't give Peter the credit he deserves for his improvements between the first and second fights. He more or less implemented the same gameplan as Rahman did, maintain a solid stance, pump the jab, keep coming forward, batter Toney with hard rights to the body and the odd overhand. Could be a stylistic weakness of Toney's.

I think it's light and day looking at the Holyfield and Ruiz fights and the Rahman and Peter fight.

Ruiz fought a similar strategy to Rahman and he clearly beat Rahman, so I think that shows the big drop in Toney's level.

Just visually Toney looks shot to me after Ruiz. Peter fought a better strategy in the rematch sure, but Toney was well and truly past it.

[BUMPY KNUCKLES]

No doubt if Toneys to win it has to be the same Toney that turned up and looked sharped vs Holyfield (yeah Holy sucked at this point but just the pysical tools Toney had that night)