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Old 12-10-2007, 01:11 PM   #1
grouch
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Default Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

As good as Kosta was against cuties, now I am picking Floyd to ud12. PBF is just too good, too smart, too strong, etc. even for Tszu.
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Old 12-10-2007, 01:15 PM   #2
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grouch
As good as Kosta was against cuties, now I am picking Floyd to ud12. PBF is just too good, too smart, too strong, etc. even for Tszu.
If Zoo could starch Zab, theres no reason to say doing the same to Floyd would be impossible.
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Old 12-10-2007, 01:21 PM   #3
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JETSKI
If Zoo could starch Zab, theres no reason to say doing the same to Floyd would be impossible.
Yeah, because Zab is an excellent measuring stick for Mayweather.

Look, I have a lot of respect for Tszyu, but it never ceases to amaze me how much credit he gets for KTFO someone as universally disparaged as Zab.
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Old 12-10-2007, 01:24 PM   #4
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

I now give ( a prime) Tszyu a 30% chance of beating Floyd. It used to be 50.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:30 AM   #5
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

Harsh.

Fighter A beats Fighter B and that changes perceptions of Fighter C?

I've been lucky enough to have watched pretty much every fight across Tszyu's entire pro career along with a few amateur bouts.

Firstly, the guy could fight like nothing else. People remember you from your last fight and your losses rather than your whole career which is the way things are I suppose. But people forget that this was the guy that everyone in the boxing world watched through the amateur ranks and into the pro world.

Teddy Atlas said Tszyu was the best boxer he had ever seen. Ever. So did Chris Byrd. De La Hoya and Mosely both said they watched Tszyu's amateur fights. He was the boxer that other boxers watched and if you want to see one of the most naturally talented boxers, hunt through ebay and get your hands on some of his amateur fights. You won't recognise him from the stationery right handed powerpuncher associations that surrounded his pro career.

He was known for hooking off the jab and head movement, two things that quickly disappeared as he started to fall in love with his power. It was a shame and you could blame his change to trainer Lewis, but I think it was more of a trade-off. Tszyu gave up the beauty and elegance he had in favour of what got the job done best.

That said, his legacy is tainted by two losses by opponents that he should have beaten. Phillips and Hatton, for mine, are not as good as Tszyu however history is going to haunt him for these fights.

People often say he couldn't handle swarmers. I don't think is true for one moment. The fights are similar not so much for the swarming style of the opponents but more for the mistakes Tszyu made.

I won't try and do a long break-down because it wastes too much energy when most people respond with 'a crackhead knocked him out' but quickly:
He failed to make weight twice across his career. Phillips and Hatton.
He was amazingly arrogant in both fights and didn't follow the gameplan that his trainer said they'd spent 12 weeks developing.
Ahead in the Phillips fight his corner repeatedly said you're walking into the right, stay outside and box. He didn't change for an instant and when asked afterwards why, he said he thought he could knock him out. It was just stupid. It was that simple.
Sam Soliman said his sparring for the Hatton fight had been to prepare for getting some space and land the right. Then the fight starts and Tszyu goes inside. Same scenario, asked afterwards why he fought like that he said 'I thought, he wants to fight like this, ok then, let's fight like this.'

His corner wondered why. Even Tszyu fans scratched their heads at this. Why would you make it hard for yourself? Well, he did. Add a ref that wasn't helping and Hatton with some questionable tactics, Tszyu picked the hardest fight he could have picked at that time. He made it harder himself.

It's amazing for a guy with as much discipline as he had to go against his trainer and gameplan but I think in both cases he underestimated his opponent and was thinking about the next big money fight. Personally, I think he wanted to take Ricky out with inside fighting or a bodyshot to show off, suddenly realised he was getting tired and thought 'what the **** am I doing?' You can literally see this realisation when suddenly switches about round four in the Hatton fight. Rounds five and six were his best too and I thought he was taking over but he just couldn't maintain any momentum and the right hand had gone MIA. Aside from throwing it in desperation at the start of each round, he kept it ****ed for nearly the entire fight waiting for a moment that never came. As Foreman said about it 'That's what happens with age. You want to throw the right, but the body no longer responds to what the mind is telling it.'

It will definitely hurt his legacy because he needed a De La Hoya or Mosely fight, both of which were being discussed exactly at the time of his losses.

In terms of talent, he started his career as good as anyone and I mean anyone, including Mayweather and Roy Jones and anyone else you wanna name. He did dominate a tough division for one of the longest streaks in history at 140, genuinely unified the true way and fought the best versions of fighters like Mitchell and Zab, who in turn hurt their own legacies with post-Tszyu performances. He fought them when they were absolutely peak and destroyed them more decisively than others who fought broken shells and mentally damaged versions. He was fighting for a world title in his thirteenth pro fight. Only the best of the best are fighting for titles at this stage.

Mayweather versus Tszyu, prime for prime, is 50/50. You won't find many fighters who are guaranteed to land precision power punches against a guy like Mayweather. But Tszyu would be the guy you'd say would land some brutal punches and test his chin. And Tszyu was never afraid to get hit to land those punches. His toughness is under-rated. He took huge punches right across his career and didn't take many backsteps. Mayweather hasn't fought a guy like Tszyu, whereas you can say Tszyu fought many guys with similar qualities, if not on the same level admittedly.

Mayweather is a ****ing superstar, no doubting. I just like Tszyu's style against him. I think Tszyu does beat him because I can't see a scenario where Tszyu follows him aimlessly around the ring like some of Mayweather's other opponents. He was too smart and too precise. You are going to get hit if you fight Tszyu and you're gonna get hit hard. So when I think of this matchup, I flip a coin. You cannot guarantee a victory against Mayweather, he's simply too good. But if I wanted to put someone across the ring with who I thought had the best chance, I'd put Tszyu first.

If only, I suppose...so close to happening.
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:47 AM   #6
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazza
gatorage thats a hell of a post. one of the best i've read anywhere.
That said, I still woulsn't give KT a 30% chance of beating Mayweather.
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:57 AM   #7
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorage
Harsh.

Fighter A beats Fighter B and that changes perceptions of Fighter C?

I've been lucky enough to have watched pretty much every fight across Tszyu's entire pro career along with a few amateur bouts.

Firstly, the guy could fight like nothing else. People remember you from your last fight and your losses rather than your whole career which is the way things are I suppose. But people forget that this was the guy that everyone in the boxing world watched through the amateur ranks and into the pro world.

Teddy Atlas said Tszyu was the best boxer he had ever seen. Ever. So did Chris Byrd. De La Hoya and Mosely both said they watched Tszyu's amateur fights. He was the boxer that other boxers watched and if you want to see one of the most naturally talented boxers, hunt through ebay and get your hands on some of his amateur fights. You won't recognise him from the stationery right handed powerpuncher associations that surrounded his pro career.

He was known for hooking off the jab and head movement, two things that quickly disappeared as he started to fall in love with his power. It was a shame and you could blame his change to trainer Lewis, but I think it was more of a trade-off. Tszyu gave up the beauty and elegance he had in favour of what got the job done best.

That said, his legacy is tainted by two losses by opponents that he should have beaten. Phillips and Hatton, for mine, are not as good as Tszyu however history is going to haunt him for these fights.

People often say he couldn't handle swarmers. I don't think is true for one moment. The fights are similar not so much for the swarming style of the opponents but more for the mistakes Tszyu made.

I won't try and do a long break-down because it wastes too much energy when most people respond with 'a crackhead knocked him out' but quickly:
He failed to make weight twice across his career. Phillips and Hatton.
He was amazingly arrogant in both fights and didn't follow the gameplan that his trainer said they'd spent 12 weeks developing.
Ahead in the Phillips fight his corner repeatedly said you're walking into the right, stay outside and box. He didn't change for an instant and when asked afterwards why, he said he thought he could knock him out. It was just stupid. It was that simple.
Sam Soliman said his sparring for the Hatton fight had been to prepare for getting some space and land the right. Then the fight starts and Tszyu goes inside. Same scenario, asked afterwards why he fought like that he said 'I thought, he wants to fight like this, ok then, let's fight like this.'

His corner wondered why. Even Tszyu fans scratched their heads at this. Why would you make it hard for yourself? Well, he did. Add a ref that wasn't helping and Hatton with some questionable tactics, Tszyu picked the hardest fight he could have picked at that time. He made it harder himself.

It's amazing for a guy with as much discipline as he had to go against his trainer and gameplan but I think in both cases he underestimated his opponent and was thinking about the next big money fight. Personally, I think he wanted to take Ricky out with inside fighting or a bodyshot to show off, suddenly realised he was getting tired and thought 'what the **** am I doing?' You can literally see this realisation when suddenly switches about round four in the Hatton fight. Rounds five and six were his best too and I thought he was taking over but he just couldn't maintain any momentum and the right hand had gone MIA. Aside from throwing it in desperation at the start of each round, he kept it ****ed for nearly the entire fight waiting for a moment that never came. As Foreman said about it 'That's what happens with age. You want to throw the right, but the body no longer responds to what the mind is telling it.'

It will definitely hurt his legacy because he needed a De La Hoya or Mosely fight, both of which were being discussed exactly at the time of his losses.

In terms of talent, he started his career as good as anyone and I mean anyone, including Mayweather and Roy Jones and anyone else you wanna name. He did dominate a tough division for one of the longest streaks in history at 140, genuinely unified the true way and fought the best versions of fighters like Mitchell and Zab, who in turn hurt their own legacies with post-Tszyu performances. He fought them when they were absolutely peak and destroyed them more decisively than others who fought broken shells and mentally damaged versions. He was fighting for a world title in his thirteenth pro fight. Only the best of the best are fighting for titles at this stage.

Mayweather versus Tszyu, prime for prime, is 50/50. You won't find many fighters who are guaranteed to land precision power punches against a guy like Mayweather. But Tszyu would be the guy you'd say would land some brutal punches and test his chin. And Tszyu was never afraid to get hit to land those punches. His toughness is under-rated. He took huge punches right across his career and didn't take many backsteps. Mayweather hasn't fought a guy like Tszyu, whereas you can say Tszyu fought many guys with similar qualities, if not on the same level admittedly.

Mayweather is a ****ing superstar, no doubting. I just like Tszyu's style against him. I think Tszyu does beat him because I can't see a scenario where Tszyu follows him aimlessly around the ring like some of Mayweather's other opponents. He was too smart and too precise. You are going to get hit if you fight Tszyu and you're gonna get hit hard. So when I think of this matchup, I flip a coin. You cannot guarantee a victory against Mayweather, he's simply too good. But if I wanted to put someone across the ring with who I thought had the best chance, I'd put Tszyu first.

If only, I suppose...so close to happening.
Could'nt have said it better mate
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:59 AM   #8
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazza
yeah but which tszyu though. the one that fought hatton or the one that ****ed up vernon forrest
Any Tszyu, past present or future. Granted I wouldn't really give anyone more than a 30% chance at beating Mayweather.
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Old 12-12-2007, 09:13 AM   #9
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JETSKI
If Zoo could starch Zab, theres no reason to say doing the same to Floyd would be impossible.

Floyd is twice the fighter Zab is in every way . I can't see floyd taking off on Tszu and then losing focus and getting KO.

Floyd would have stayed on Tszu till the job was done and Tszu was defeated.
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:02 AM   #10
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

PBF would take away Zoo's best punch outbox him and win by UD.
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:04 AM   #11
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

As great as Mayweather is he DUCKED Kostya Tszyu when he was champ at 140 pounds!

Styles make fights, Tszyu is a power puncher with great accuracy. Something Floyd wanted no part of when they were both in their primes at 140 pounds.
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:15 AM   #12
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

Brilliant Gatorage.
I guess it depends if Kostya had landed a big one....be it the right (Judah) or the left to the body(Hurtado). As Hatton proved, it's not such an easy task.
I also think Kostya wasn't in the right frame of mind for both fights he lost, what with losing the lawsuit thus most of his accumulated wealth to date, and not being able to secure a big fight(Floyd, DLH, Shane) and then settling for Hatton.

One thing I don't hear much about is Floyd's chin....he's so damn elusive it's hard to tell...but I'm thinking he might have a hell of a chin!
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:26 AM   #13
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedona
Brilliant Gatorage.
I guess it depends if Kostya had landed a big one....be it the right (Judah) or the left to the body(Hurtado). As Hatton proved, it's not such an easy task.
I also think Kostya wasn't in the right frame of mind for both fights he lost, what with losing the lawsuit thus most of his accumulated wealth to date, and not being able to secure a big fight(Floyd, DLH, Shane) and then settling for Hatton.

One thing I don't hear much about is Floyd's chin....he's so damn elusive it's hard to tell...but I'm thinking he might have a hell of a chin!
PBF's toughness and heart are very underrated. Some people said he would fold under Hatton's pressure but he did just the opposite.
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:44 AM   #14
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Default Re: Tszu vs PBF, changed my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K0NPHL1C7
Any Tszyu, past present or future. Granted I wouldn't really give anyone more than a 30% chance at beating Mayweather.
You include Robinson, Duran, Leonard and Hearns?
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