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Old 09-26-2013, 02:19 AM   #1
choklab
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Default prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

Before deciding on this think about it. Briefly, at world level Charles did not have a problem with size. He beat baksi, Joe Louis, elmer Ray who were world class.

Sonny Liston breezed through big men like Williams but it was 180-190lb box fighters that gave him more trouble like WHitehurst, machen and Marty marshal. Sure Liston was old but Leotis Martin was also more Charles stamp than a superheavyweight.

Liston was better than a lot of men Charles beat but ezzards resume is not based on just two or so opponents like Sonnys is. I pick Charles. Late KO.
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Old 09-26-2013, 02:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

I think Charles boxing skills would give Liston trouble during the early rounds. Eventually I think that big jab of Sonny`s would take its toll on The Cinncinnati Cobra. Ofcourse the jab busts up a fighter around the eyes but more importantly it sets up the heavier stuff.

I dont know that Charles had the legs to fight the way Machen did. IMO Ezzard woud stand in the pocket more and therefore land some crisp counters but he would also take the return fire more than a guy like Machen.

I believe Liston would wear him down for an 8th round stoppage in a fast fight.

Last edited by ETM; 09-26-2013 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:07 AM   #3
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Default Re: prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by choklab View Post
Before deciding on this think about it. Briefly, at world level Charles did not have a problem with size. He beat baksi, Joe Louis, elmer Ray who were world class.

Sonny Liston breezed through big men like Williams but it was 180-190lb box fighters that gave him more trouble like WHitehurst, machen and Marty marshal. Sure Liston was old but Leotis Martin was also more Charles stamp than a superheavyweight.

Liston was better than a lot of men Charles beat but ezzards resume is not based on just two or so opponents like Sonnys is. I pick Charles. Late KO.
Wow!

Does "Charles" mean Ezzard Charles (that is who I think you are picking) or Charles "Sonny" Liston?

You pick Ezzard Charles to KO Sonny Liston? I was reading your post with great interest and then you hit me with that little daisy. Wow! I rank Ezzard number three on my p4p list under Greb and Robinson. For me to pick Ezzard by KO he would have had to KO Louis and at let rock Rocky Maricano more than once...because that is what it would take to KO a prime Sonny Liston.

Not to contradict you...but really to ask you maybe for a bit more detail into that call.

Thanks.
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

What did it for me was watching Liston against whitehurst. All I could think of was Ezzard in the shoes of Whitehurst. Could have been a whitewash!

Not only could Liston not finish off bert in round 9 but Sonny was wobbled himself from an over hand right in round one. If he can't finish Whitehurst he is not finishing off Ezzard. If Whitehurst can wobble Sonny why can't Ezzard do better?

Maybe Liston improved after this fight, maybe he hit harder after this fight, but Sonny never went 15 rounds and he did not meet a man that he could beat with a similar resume of Ezzard Charles.

Last edited by choklab; 09-26-2013 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 09-26-2013, 02:06 PM   #5
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Default Re: prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

Was the Whitehurst bout close on the cards? Did you have it close?
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

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Was the Whitehurst bout close on the cards? Did you have it close?
No, Liston had every advantage, he won clearly but he did not blow whitehurst away because he found him harder to track down and harder to hurt than bigger men. I just felt that Ezzard would improve not only by not being blown away but in taking advantage of the openings afforded to bert with ezzards improvement in speed and talent.
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

I like Liston by decision or tko at some point ... Charles has a better shot against Foreman ... Liston too sound to go with size, strength and reach ..
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:00 PM   #8
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Default Re: prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
Before deciding on this think about it. Briefly, at world level Charles did not have a problem with size. He beat baksi, Joe Louis, elmer Ray who were world class.

Sonny Liston breezed through big men like Williams but it was 180-190lb box fighters that gave him more trouble like WHitehurst, machen and Marty marshal. Sure Liston was old but Leotis Martin was also more Charles stamp than a superheavyweight.

Liston was better than a lot of men Charles beat but ezzards resume is not based on just two or so opponents like Sonnys is. I pick Charles. Late KO.
Charles prime was as a LHVY.I don't see him beating Liston when he was that size. Whitehurst didn't give him trouble he got his arse kicked in both fights he was knocked clean out of the ring in their second fight and was trying to get back in when the final bell rang at 7.
Liston had 8 fights when he faced Marshall who was a 24 fight cutie Liston got his jaw broke but still only lost a split decision .

In their 2nd fight Liston had him down 7 times for a 6th rd tko!
In the 3rd one Liston won 9 of the 10 rds.some trouble!

Against Martin, Liston was over 40 years old! He still had Martin down early before he gassed.

Machen ran all night against Liston , he fought nothing like Charles. Charles was knocked spark out by a left hook from Walcott, the left hook was Liston's best punch.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:18 PM   #9
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Default Re: prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

It isn't Charles' style to run like hell ala Whitehurst. He would move efficiently, countering and retreating, turning it up when the opportunity comes.

I think Charles could pull it off, but he'd have to fight a perfect fight. All it takes is one from Liston and the fight changes course.

At worst, Liston loses a split decision. At best, he clobbers Charles early on.

I tend to think he'd lose the majority of rounds (however long) until he lands a fight-changing punch and Sonny turns up the heat.

Liston TKO9 Charles
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:21 PM   #10
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Default Re: prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

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Charles prime was as a LHVY.I don't see him beating Liston when he was that size. Whitehurst didn't give him trouble he got his arse kicked in both fights he was knocked clean out of the ring in their second fight and was trying to get back in when the final bell rang at 7.
Liston had 8 fights when he faced Marshall who was a 24 fight cutie Liston got his jaw broke but still only lost a split decision .

In their 2nd fight Liston had him down 7 times for a 6th rd tko!
In the 3rd one Liston won 9 of the 10 rds.some trouble!

Against Martin, Liston was over 40 years old! He still had Martin down early before he gassed.

Machen ran all night against Liston , he fought nothing like Charles. Charles was knocked spark out by a left hook from Walcott, the left hook was Liston's best punch.
It took 37 rounds of fighting Charles for walcott to find one unique hook. Scoring those rounds Ezzard won more of them. I don't see Liston tricking ezzard with a slick move like that.

Floyd Patterson was rated as a lightheavyweight for as long as Charles. Nobody says Floyd peaked as a LH. Ezzard was a LH for a very short time. Before the war Charles was a middleweight. Never made even 170. Within 18 months of returning from the war Ezzard was fighting heavyweights. Charles was a heavyweight longer than anything else. He knocked out plenty more rated heavyweights than Liston. Baksi, elmer Ray, Joe Louis and Coley Walace were as big as Liston too.

Charles had every punch in the book, there was nothing he could not do. Liston would be taking a lot of punches.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:16 AM   #11
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Default Re: prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
It took 37 rounds of fighting Charles for walcott to find one unique hook. Scoring those rounds Ezzard won more of them. I don't see Liston tricking ezzard with a slick move like that.

Floyd Patterson was rated as a lightheavyweight for as long as Charles. Nobody says Floyd peaked as a LH. Ezzard was a LH for a very short time. Before the war Charles was a middleweight. Never made even 170. Within 18 months of returning from the war Ezzard was fighting heavyweights. Charles was a heavyweight longer than anything else. He knocked out plenty more rated heavyweights than Liston. Baksi, elmer Ray, Joe Louis and Coley Walace were as big as Liston too.

Charles had every punch in the book, there was nothing he could not do. Liston would be taking a lot of punches.
Ezzard Charles did have every punch in the book, but I think they would just bounce off Liston. Ezzard couldn't finish a past it Joe Louis or seriously hurt Marciano, so he couldn't hurt Liston. 15 rounds is along time to avoid Liston's power.

I would pick Liston by tko or late stoppage.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:31 AM   #12
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Default Re: prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
Before deciding on this think about it. Briefly, at world level Charles did not have a problem with size. He beat baksi, Joe Louis, elmer Ray who were world class.

Sonny Liston breezed through big men like Williams but it was 180-190lb box fighters that gave him more trouble like WHitehurst, machen and Marty marshal. Sure Liston was old but Leotis Martin was also more Charles stamp than a superheavyweight.

Liston was better than a lot of men Charles beat but ezzards resume is not based on just two or so opponents like Sonnys is. I pick Charles. Late KO.
You made a fantasy fight with Liston in it! Then picked Liston to lose! What an astonishing surprise.
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Old 09-28-2013, 12:32 PM   #13
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Default Re: prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

Liston's jab might be the difference here. Because of it, he wouldn't have to exert himself like Foreman might have to, nor would it be necessary for him to make Charles give ground grudgingly as Marciano did. Sonny has the jab to box with Ezz at range, and the chin to stand up to what peak Charles might gun him with. Liston-Machen might be as close as we could get to seeing what prime Sonny against prime Ezz might look like, although Charles was obviously greater than Eddie by a good margin. But it was possible at all times in Liston's career for somebody the size of Ezzard to take Sonny to the final bell.

Marty Marshall's 1954 loss to Harold Johnson is on youtube. It took place less than four months after Marshall defeated a 7-0 Liston via SD, so this is indeed the version of Marty who beat him, and would later take Sonny the ten round limit in their rubber match. It's not hard to imagine his antics amusing Liston as necessary to open Sonny's mouth in enough of a smile to get his jaw fractured. This is definitely an entertaining screwball. The Satterfield knockout showed that Marshall's power was sufficient to be treated with some respect. Liston weighed at least 25 pounds more than Marty for all three of their bouts. [Harold Johnson was already about as serious a veteran campaigner as boxing had, and it's obvious Marshall's not intimidated by him, so it's unlikely he was scared of Sonny either.]

Charles was pretty tough at his best, but he'd need to do it over the distance. More likely though, I think this is a decision loss for him in which he hits the deck, and can't neutralize that jab with his superior speed, skills and mobility. You could tell after Louis that he'd been in a fight. Sonny's jab could well inflict significant facial damage, swelling an eye shut maybe.

Ezz wasn't a runner. To out jab and outmaneuver Liston with superior speed and mobility as needed to win a decision when a natural LHW would require somebody like Loughran [who did have a chin which could be dented] or Pastrano [who could get beaten on cuts, as well as carve up an opponent himself].
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