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Old 10-30-2008, 06:29 PM   #1
the cobra
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Default Greatness

Which of these fighters do you classify as Great?

Whatever you consider Great to be, whether it means a fighter who would make it inside your top 100 all time, top 50, top 25, top 120, whatever, which of these fighters do you see as Great fighters?

Cocoa Kid

Ken Buchanan

Esteban DeJesus

Ismael Laguna

Hector Camacho

Jimmy Bivins

Eddie Booker

Duilio Loi

Nino Benvenuti

Lupe Pintor

Ernesto Marcel

Johnny Famechon

Tony Zale

Kostya Tszyu

Jeff Fenech


Which of these fighters, if any, do you personally classify as GREAT fighters?
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:25 PM   #2
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Default Re: Greatness

Ken Buchanan

Esteban DeJesus

Ismael Laguna

Jimmy Bivins

Duilio Loi

Lupe Pintor



My picks. I've been a bit strict, and i'd suggest leving out either Buchanan or Laguna means the other has to go. Some of the guys I've left out have a borderline case.

You?
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:56 PM   #3
the cobra
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Default Re: Greatness

Quote:
Originally posted by McGrain
Ken Buchanan

Esteban DeJesus

Ismael Laguna

Jimmy Bivins

Duilio Loi

Lupe Pintor



My picks. I've been a bit strict, and i'd suggest leving out either Buchanan or Laguna means the other has to go. Some of the guys I've left out have a borderline case.

You?
Bivins is really the only one I feel sure about as of the moment.

I think I could see DeJesus, Buchanan, Laguna, and Loi as Greats.

Pintor, Camacho, Benvenuti, Tszyu, Cocoa Kid, Booker, and Zale come in next, all just short of greatness as I see it.

Then finish off with a level of Famechon, Marcel, and Fenech.

Or something like that.

What makes you chose those fighters McGrain?
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:28 PM   #4
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Depending on how strict your criteria is i don't thnk it would be ridiculous to argue for all of them.

I wouldn't put Marcel or Famechon on a lower level than Buch, Dejesus etc.
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:32 PM   #5
the cobra
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Quote:
Oriignally posted by Mantequilla
Depending on how strict your criteria is i don't thnk it would be ridiculous to argue for all of them.

I wouldn't put Marcel or Famechon on a lower level than Buch, Dejesus etc.
Any that stick out as clear greats to you?
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: Greatness

Quote:
Originally Posted by the cobra
Which of these fighters do you classify as Great?

Whatever you consider Great to be, whether it means a fighter who would make it inside your top 100 all time, top 50, top 25, top 120, whatever, which of these fighters do you see as Great fighters?

Cocoa Kid

Ken Buchanan

Esteban DeJesus

Ismael Laguna

Hector Camacho

Jimmy Bivins

Eddie Booker

Duilio Loi

Nino Benvenuti

Lupe Pintor

Ernesto Marcel

Johnny Famechon

Tony Zale

Kostya Tszyu

Jeff Fenech


Which of these fighters, if any, do you personally classify as GREAT fighters?
All are in my top 200, but only Loi gets a spot in my top 100. Like Mantequilla says, it depends on your criteria, but nothing is patently absurd in regarding them all as great. Personally, I think Camacho is the one least likely in that list to be regarded as great, even though he might well be the most talented.
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:03 PM   #7
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Yeah, Camacho for me is the one that sticks out as least accomplished despite his talent.

Most of the others are on a similar level though most likely Loi would go up in my estimation if i had watched his fights with Ortiz
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: Greatness

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
All are in my top 200, but only Loi gets a spot in my top 100. Like Mantequilla says, it depends on your criteria, but nothing is patently absurd in regarding them all as great. Personally, I think Camacho is the one least likely in that list to be regarded as great, even though he might well be the most talented.
why do you have Loi ahead of Bivins who beat better competition?
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:18 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladerunner
why do you have Loi ahead of Bivins who beat better competition?
Loi was simply more consistent than Bivins. He arguably didn't lose a fight until he lost to Perkins, and he reversed it, as he did every loss in his career.

Bivins has a great looking resume, but we should not forget that his best wins came against smaller guys, who when they fully matured, got the better of him.
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:29 PM   #10
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Bivins sticks out for me at at the other end Fenech and Camacho.
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sweet_Scientist
Loi was simply more consistent than Bivins. He arguably didn't lose a fight until he lost to Perkins, and he reversed it, as he did every loss in his career.

Bivins has a great looking resume, but we should not forget that his best wins came against smaller guys, who when they fully matured, got the better of him.
Even so, given the circumstances of each win, don't you think Bivins' knockout of Moore (who was 10 years into his career), as well as the one-sided win over a pre-prime and naturally smaller but still excellent Ezzard Charles, along with wins over Marshall, Burley, Maxim, Curtis Sheppard (4 times), Lesnevich, Clarence Henry, Yarosz, Soose, Bettina, Lee Q. Murray, Pastor, Christoforidis, etc. Is enough to place Bivins higher all-time than Loi, who, outside of Ortiz and Perkins and a few more decent wins, simply doesn't have an impressive resume?
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:49 PM   #12
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...some very good fighters, bivins is the only one i'd call great.
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:32 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the cobra
Even so, given the circumstances of each win, don't you think Bivins' knockout of Moore (who was 10 years into his career), as well as the one-sided win over a pre-prime and naturally smaller but still excellent Ezzard Charles, along with wins over Marshall, Burley, Maxim, Curtis Sheppard (4 times), Lesnevich, Clarence Henry, Yarosz, Soose, Bettina, Lee Q. Murray, Pastor, Christoforidis, etc. Is enough to place Bivins higher all-time than Loi, who, outside of Ortiz and Perkins and a few more decent wins, simply doesn't have an impressive resume?
That's a lot of talent there, I can't deny it. That resume far outstrips Loi's.

Though, he was 17 or 18 pounds heavier than Moore when he worked the trick, about 10 pounds heavier than Marshall when he did him, 11 or so pounds above Smith, 10 above a greenish Charles etc. The wins still count, but I don't think Duilio would lose to many 130 pounders either, ya know?

Last edited by sweet_scientist; 10-31-2008 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 10-31-2008, 03:43 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the cobra

Cocoa Kid

Ken Buchanan

Esteban DeJesus

Ismael Laguna

Hector Camacho

Jimmy Bivins

Eddie Booker

Duilio Loi

Nino Benvenuti

Lupe Pintor

Ernesto Marcel

Johnny Famechon

Tony Zale

Kostya Tszyu

Jeff Fenech
Bivins, Zale, and Fenech for sure IMO.

Probably Benvenuti, Booker (though I've never seen him), and maybe Pintor as well.

Hard to say with Loi, I've never seen him and although he had great numbers, he's mainly remembered for his series of fights against one fighter.

The others all fall short IMO, although Camacho had the talent of a great fighter, and could possibly beat one if he put his mind to it.
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Old 10-31-2008, 03:51 AM   #15
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All excellent fighters, but for greatness to mean anything special you have to conclude none of the fighters listed were great.
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