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Old 08-06-2007, 06:17 AM   #31
Shake
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Yes. His resume doesn't justify All-Time Top 10 placement.
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Originally Posted by Senya13
Jones Jr is my #1 talent/potential-wise. And he has very good achievements no matter how anyone tries to distort it (the thing is if we gonna apply the same picky aproach to other great fighters, we will find plenty of flaws about pretty much anyone). So summing two criterias up, Jones is my #4.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:27 AM   #32
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by Shake
Imagine, boxer A (say, Ezzard Charles) ranked #1 for resume, and #12 for talent/potential, summing two criterias up, he can end up somewhere near #6 (although this is by no means an arithmetical operation). Or, vice versa, boxer B (say Roy Jones) ranked #1 talent-wise, but outside of Top 10 achievement-wise, but summing them up, he ends up inside Top 10.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:31 AM   #33
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Yes, but based on his resume, Roy Jones might very well place outside the top 75.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:33 AM   #34
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by META5
If it were proved that he'd been a user of steroids as some suspect and has been suggested, how would that affect your ranking and perception of Roy?
Even if he were involved into such things (hypothetically speaking), what positive effects could that have on him? Handspeed? It may only get worse with more muscles/weight. Stamina - ditto (more muscles require more oxygen), plus he has been known as a very-hard working athlete (he was jogging every day, playing basketball, etc). Strength - he doesn't depend on it that much. Power - he's not a big puncher naturally, his power originates in speed and unpredictability. Mobility - he's not running around the ring, he's using in and out moves mostly.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:37 AM   #35
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by Shake
Yes, but based on his resume, Roy Jones might very well place outside the top 75.
You think I couldn't rip apart, say, Ray Robinson's or Ezzard Charles', or Harry Greb's resumes? Unfortunately, for most people their resumes are more a set of famous names, than details of particular fights or conditions they took place in (such as how far from peak and just how good this or that opponent was, etc).
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:44 AM   #36
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Even if he were involved into such things (hypothetically speaking), what positive effects could that have on him? Handspeed? It may only get worse with more muscles/weight. Stamina - ditto (more muscles require more oxygen), plus he has been known as a very-hard working athlete (he was jogging every day, playing basketball, etc). Strength - he doesn't depend on it that much. Power - he's not a big puncher naturally, his power originates in speed and unpredictability. Mobility - he's not running around the ring, he's using in and out moves mostly.
Steroids don't just bulk you up ... they can do a whole lot of things for a fighter and athlete. I think Roy is a big puncher naturally actually. I think him to be of the Mike Tyson mould in that he is naturally quite heavy handed, but mixed in with insane speed and explosion ... whilst I appreciate that this seems counterintuitive, it's just the nature of their fighting styles that makes one assume that they are wholly opposites as punchers.

It may well be the case that steroids helped him add the bulk for his transition up to heavyweight, or that steroids allowed him to train harder and for longer without the wear and tear that would come from that kind of training in its most natural unassisted format. Steroids can significantly shorten recovery time and as we discovered with Ben Johnson, steroids can make a well tuned athlete out of this world fast and explosive ... and Roy did indeed seem ... well ... out of this world fast and explosive.

I make no accusations, but please don't be so narrow minded to assume that adding weight is the only benefit that an athlete such as Roy may seek from the use of steroids.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:45 AM   #37
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

No offense senya but your knowledge of what steroids do is incorrect....
Steroids dont necessarily just make you muscle bound or increase muscle mass immensely,it depends how you train with them,and your body type...Used in certain ways steroids can increase stamina,speed,reactions,agressiveness,punch resistance and decrease body fat while increasing strength....Jones' style was perfect for the benefits of steroids,and the guy got caught against richard hall...
Dont fall for the stereotype that every steroid user is super muscled or muscle bound,tennis players,cricketers,footballers and guys with relatively small mucle mass can still get great benefits from gear...
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:55 AM   #38
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by Senya13
You think I couldn't rip apart, say, Ray Robinson's or Ezzard Charles', or Harry Greb's resumes? Unfortunately, for most people their resumes are more a set of famous names, than details of particular fights or conditions they took place in (such as how far from peak and just how good this or that opponent was, etc).
No, I just want to know if there was any reasoning to these before you came to your conclusion or if you reached your conclusion first and then based your reasoning around whom you preferred to watch.

For instance -- Roberto Duran's resume, while not P4P top ten in your estimation, was by far and wide better than that of Roy Jones. It is your primary reason to exlude him from your top 10. You then place Roy Jones at #4.

Then I have to conclude that you consider Roy to be several levels above Roberto Duran in boxing ability, that he's so far out of Roberto's league that Roy Jones not only makes up the difference in resume, but overtakes him by a big margin, at least as big as #11-#4.

After thinking this through, I arrived at the following.

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Old 08-06-2007, 07:30 AM   #39
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by Asterion
In his lightweight prime he was amazing to watch, and also in some of his few fights at welterweight. But does his resume justify him being Top5 P4P of all time?

Did he really clean the Lightweight division? He didn't beat contenders of his era like Jimmy Heair, Angel Mayoral, Vicente Saldivar, etc.

Does he deserve to rank high at Welterweight just because of defeating and then losing against Ray Leonard, beating ex Champ Carlos Palomino and a few unranked guys?


His resume against contenders is basically this:

Hiro Kobayashi
Ken Buchanan
Guts Ishimatsu
Saoul Mamby
Esteban De Jesús
Vilomar Fernandez
Ray Lampkin
Edwin Viruet
Edwin Viruet
Esteban De Jesus
Carlos Palomino
Ray Leonard
Luigi Minchillo
Pipino Cuevas (past his best)
Davey Moore (had less than 17 pro fights)
Iran Barkley (incredible win, but Iran wasn't really a "consistent" fighter)

But he also had 6 losses before turning 35 years old (and then had much more Ls):

Esteban De Jesus
Ray Leonard
Wilfred Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns
Sometimes it takes a lot of balls to speak the truth about a popular fighter. I want to be up front by saying that Duran is not among my favorite fighters, but at the same time I want to be fair with him in this thread. Duran as a light weight is not over rated. He is an ALL time top 5 light weight. A speical fighter. He simply was too strong ( but not a big puncher ) and active for most light weights. He had an under rated defense too. Fans love Duran for his scowl in the ring. However, I do think Duran as a welter and middle weight is vastly over rated. Duran is the only HOF fighter I can think of who was KO’d by one punch and quit in a fight without a major injury. I’ve always felt he was a dirty fighter. I believe that Roberto threw an intentional low blow vs Buchanan to win the lightweight crown. While Duran was up on the cards, winning the title this way is dishonorable. Buchanan never got the re-match.
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Old 08-06-2007, 07:51 AM   #40
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by Shake
Yes, but based on his resume, Roy Jones might very well place outside the top 75.
Not a hope in hell.
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:23 AM   #41
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

There is no shame in losing to a peak and hardest 147/154 puncher of all time in tommy hearns,when past your peak,above your best weight and fighting your sylistic nightmare....That final right hand would have stopped or knocked out many hall of famers at middle.....
Im sure there are many hall of famers who got knocked out with one punch,walcott,charles,fullmer,liston just of fthe top of my head...
Of course quitting against ray is a big knock,but i really dont understand fully what happened,maybe an ego meltdown or something? As he never quit before or since in tough fights i think we can call that a freak occurence....
When looking at duran we have to say that as lightweight he is venerated by ALL the old timers,who even say he is the no1 of all times....This is high praise indeed from the all timers who would probably put tyson,jones and pbf in the category of very good champions but not top atgs....
As well as the old timers,all the modern guys rate duran as the no1 of all times at lightweight...
I find it a little hard to rank with durans resume at lightweight,but he did beat buchanan and dejesus who are both hall of famers as well as some good contendors...I wonder if someone could rank and rate durans resume at lightweight for the forum?
Anyway,those who saw him at lightweight say he was the best ever....
If we then take what he achieved in his short time at welter,beating one of the true atg welters in leonard and beating world champ palamino,thats another two hall of famers there....
He also beat hall of famer cuevas at lt middle.
He lost of course to benitez (a hall of famer.) and the awkward laing. (not a hall of famer!!.) He beat davey moore and gave a near peak marvin an excellent fight for the middle crown,probably marvins toughest fight up till then....Now bear in mind,can any of you imagine any lightweight world champ in history not only competing but running close arguably the best middle of all time? Try picturing chavez,whitaker,pbf,benny leonard or any other going 15 v a peak marvin hagler...
To me duran was a demon at lightweight and welter,one of true atgs head to head,i mean just beating a peak ray at welter is something once again no lightweight could ever do....chavez,b.leonard,whitaker or pbf v ray leonard anyone?
All the things that duran did above welter to me are icing on the cake/resume,beating a huge middle in barkley for the world title,beating world champ castro at super middle past 40,being competitive with pazienza,camacho at such an advanced age and such like are great achievements for a way overweight and past peak fighter....
His longevity and amazing performances v great and good fighters is awesome.....The biggest knock on duran is he should have been more disciplined and stayed no higher than welter....
Judge him on his lightweight and welter career where he was something like 80 fights, 78 wins,two losses (one avenged twice,and 1-1 with ray leonard.) and roughly 58 kos ,with 16 winning world title fights out of 17 over 13/14 years...He also started at super bantam or 122 lbs,won titles at 4 weights (three original weights.) and finished at world level at 168....
The word p4p is invented for duran,who i think has a case for no1 p4p of all times,given the subjective nature of the sport,and the presence of so many great contendors for the no1 title making there no clear cut number one.....At this dizzying level of greatness level no one can really say that robinson was so much better than duran p4p......
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:44 AM   #42
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

As can be seen from my post, I described several effects usage of banned substances could result in, but none of them could make Jones show what he did. No matter how much you use them you will never achieve his handspeed if you didn't have naturally ultra-fast (as in one in a million or even more rare) hands.

Him training longer than can be usually achieved, the thing is young Jones had been training 6 to 8 hours every day for many years under guidance of his father, and he kept the habbit of keeping himself in good shape ever since, so that part came naturally as well, not because of banned substances.

His voyage to heavyweight is described on Shilstone site, with details of what methods Mackie uses for that. When he was preparing for Tarver I, he had done that without Shilstone's help and he regreted that, as it was done in a bad way. That was basically the only fight in his pro career where he had problems with stamina, all the rest (even the fight vs Glen Johnson) he didn't look visibly winded as the fight went on, so unless you want to think that he's been able to conceal usage of banned substances in 20+ only title fights alone, and many more without a title, there's only one conclusion - it came naturally with hard training he is known for.
Even at 38 years of age Roy has the fastest hands of any light heavyweight in history, no steroids will let you show such results at this age, if it wasn't given to you by nature (genetics).

And the last thing is, of course, the fact that Jones was known for all these qualities since he was an amateur, you can see him already ultra fast in Victor Levine bout that was in 1986.
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:46 AM   #43
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by enquirer
hardest 147/154 puncher of all time in tommy hearns
The #1 place at 154lb belongs to Julian Jackson, not to Hearns.
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:51 AM   #44
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
I know you've done the list umpteen times but where did you end up rating Duran P4P?
Actually had him at no 5. Perhaps a little high, but he is as good (probably the best along with Henry Armstrong) that I've seen on film.
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:54 AM   #45
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by Shake
For instance -- Roberto Duran's resume, while not P4P top ten in your estimation, was by far and wide better than that of Roy Jones. It is your primary reason to exlude him from your top 10. You then place Roy Jones at #4.
How exactly is Duran's resume better than Jones's?

Quote:
Then I have to conclude that you consider Roy to be several levels above Roberto Duran in boxing ability, that he's so far out of Roberto's league that Roy Jones not only makes up the difference in resume, but overtakes him by a big margin, at least as big as #11-#4.
Who looked more unbeatable and impressive at their peak? For me it's Jones Jr, hands down. Hopkins (middleweight), Toney (super middleweight) and Hill (light heavyweight) were very good tests and none had any chances at all, one-sided fights (despite what the judges gave 4 rounds to Hopkins, B-Hop didn't really prove his superiority to win a single round of that fight).
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