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Old 08-06-2007, 09:59 AM   #46
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
Actually had him at no 5. Perhaps a little high, but he is as good (probably the best along with Henry Armstrong) that I've seen on film.
Fair enough mate, 5 is quite reasonable. There's plenty of pristine film of Duran.
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:09 AM   #47
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
What was so impressive on film to you about Armstrong? You found him more impressive to watch than SRR, SRL, Whitaker, Jones Jr., Hagler, Hearns, etc? Perhaps I need to see more of him.
In a word, his indefatigability. Is that a word?

The guy's workrate is the best I've ever seen, he had a granite chin, and his skills were excellent, if a notch below SRL, Whitaker and Jones. I won't say anything about SRR because I have seen him at middleweight and in one five min clip as a welter where you couldn't see ****. I haven't seen the best of him, and what I have seen, he was not at his best, although still outstanding, don't get me wrong.

Not sure, what you've seen of Armstrong, I have the following:

Henry Armstrong vs. Ernie Roderick (3 min.)
Henry Armstrong vs. Barney Ross (20 min.)
Henry Armstrong vs. Baby Arizmendi III & IV (12 & 25 min.)
Henry Armstrong vs. Ceferino Garcia I (27 min.)
Henry Armstrong vs. Ceferino Garcia II (22 min.)
Henry Armstrong vs. Lou Ambers II (30 min.)
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:22 AM   #48
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Duran did not lose his biggest fights as compared to robinson...
If you look at duran up until the end of 1981 at age 30 he had 86 fights,two losses (one avenged twice.) and 56 stoppage wins. He had also had 17 world title fight and won all but one of them,the leonard rematch...This incredible span lasted 14 years,two original weight divisions and encompassed buchanan,de jesus,ray leonard and palamino,as well as some very good fighters,all while looking superb on film...
Ray robinson had a similar run of 12 years (1940-1952.) which featured three losses (la motta,turpin and maxim,the first two avenged.) the last of which was at 32 against maxim,after which robbie temporarily retired...Robbie had about 130 or so fights in this period and many kos,had 12 world title bouts (7 at welter,four at middle,one at lt heavy.) of which he lost two....
He beat hall of famers gavilan,la motta and graziano in this run....
I dont see a massive difference between the two,bearing in mind that after these runs both of these men won good fights and lost good fights,both sustained many losses after 30.....
Why hold robertos past his prime and unnatural weight losses against him while discounting robbies? Robbie also fought and lost a lot at middle which was close to his best weight of welter/lt middle,whereas roberto sustained many losses at lt middle,middle and supermiddle which was way past his best of lightweight/welter....
Roberto won titles at three original weight classes (four including lt middle.) robbie won two and failed a the the third weight and never tried again......Cant robbies retiring in the corner against maxim be compared to durans no mas? How many guys considered no1 all time retired on their stool in a world title fight? (devils advocate by the way!.)
Anyway,durans run at lightweight/welter is as good as robbies run til the maxim fight......Disuss....
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:35 AM   #49
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

I feel hearns was the harder one punch hitter at 154,but jackson was a murderous puncher at 154 as well....Anway,its defintely clear they are one and two,rank them as you will,i dont think you can say jackson was much better than tommy for one punch power....
And i feel duran could have beaten and avoided jacksons shots,but not tommys.....Power+speed=even more destruction.....
As for jones,yes he was phenomenally gifted,nobody can dispute this,but taking steroids could have increased his level to the point that like ben johnson being transformed from a world class sprinter to the greatest of all time....(time and perfomance wise.) nobody dominated like ben johnson when he was at his best in the 100m,his time is still only 1 hundreth slower than the current world record and he was EASING off before the finish line....Ben johnson could have run 9.75 or even 9.7 and this was back in 88,powell is only just doing this now about 20 years later.....steroids work,no doubt at all.....Especially given the right natural frame and attributes ala jones.....
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:43 AM   #50
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by enquirer
Duran did not lose his biggest fights as compared to robinson...
If you look at duran up until the end of 1981 at age 30 he had 86 fights,two losses (one avenged twice.) and 56 stoppage wins. He had also had 17 world title fight and won all but one of them,the leonard rematch...This incredible span lasted 14 years,two original weight divisions and encompassed buchanan,de jesus,ray leonard and palamino,as well as some very good fighters,all while looking superb on film...
Ray robinson had a similar run of 12 years (1940-1952.) which featured three losses (la motta,turpin and maxim,the first two avenged.) the last of which was at 32 against maxim,after which robbie temporarily retired...Robbie had about 130 or so fights in this period and many kos,had 12 world title bouts (7 at welter,four at middle,one at lt heavy.) of which he lost two....
He beat hall of famers gavilan,la motta and graziano in this run....
I dont see a massive difference between the two,bearing in mind that after these runs both of these men won good fights and lost good fights,both sustained many losses after 30.....
Why hold robertos past his prime and unnatural weight losses against him while discounting robbies? Robbie also fought and lost a lot at middle which was close to his best weight of welter/lt middle,whereas roberto sustained many losses at lt middle,middle and supermiddle which was way past his best of lightweight/welter....
Roberto won titles at three original weight classes (four including lt middle.) robbie won two and failed a the the third weight and never tried again......Cant robbies retiring in the corner against maxim be compared to durans no mas? How many guys considered no1 all time retired on their stool in a world title fight? (devils advocate by the way!.)
Anyway,durans run at lightweight/welter is as good as robbies run til the maxim fight......Disuss....
In Ray's run, he beat Sammy Angott (multiple times), Fritzie Zivic (multiple times), Jake LaMotta (multiple times), Kid Gavilan (multiple times), Carl Bobo Olson (multiple times), Randy Turpin, Henry Armstrong and Rocky Graziano. That just flat out trumps Roberto's run, great as it was.

Even after that, you had Robinson beating the likes of Olson, Fulmer and Basilio, which is more impressive than beating a washed up Cuevas, Davey Moore and Iran Barkley.

Oh and let me just nip it in the bud, NO Duran did not come close to beating Hagler.
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:54 AM   #51
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

How many of those robbie beat were past it,like armstrong and graziano for example?
I also didnt mention the guys like mamby,Viruet or other contendors /future world champs that duran beat....And durans perfomance v marvin certainly surpasses robinson v maxim,no?
Even duran v barkley is as good as some of robbie wins....How good were olsen and turpin really?
Beating a peak ray leonard a full 13 lbs above your original championship weight is certainly the trump of the lot......
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:09 AM   #52
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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Originally Posted by enquirer
How many of those robbie beat were past it,like armstrong and graziano for example?
Yeah they were. Even so, Robinson's resume is still awesome.

Quote:
I also didnt mention the guys like mamby,Viruet or other contendors /future world champs that duran beat
I also didn't mention many contenders Robinson beat.


Quote:
....And durans perfomance v marvin certainly surpasses robinson v maxim,no?
In a way yes, in a way no. Robinson nearly won his fight, Duran nearly robbed Hagler. Obviously Hagler is better than Maxim.


Quote:
Even duran v barkley is as good as some of robbie wins....How good were olsen and turpin really?
Better than Barkley and Moore imo.

Quote:
Beating a peak ray leonard a full 13 lbs above your original championship weight is certainly the trump of the lot......
It keeps Duran in the discussion, for sure. It's a greater win than any single win Robinson ever had, but Robinson had quite a few better wins than Roberto's second best.
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:24 AM   #53
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Robertos' slight problem was the slight lack of hall of famers in the lightweight division in his time there,although he did fight de jesus three times and buchanan...At welter beating peak leonard and a good palamino are all top....Thats 7 fights against atg opposition.....And he beat all of them at least once.....
Not only is roberto still live and kicking in the discussion,but he has shown that its not silly at all to put him in contention for the no1 p4p of all time......Note also roberto goes head to head very well with any fighters in history at 135/147...(except for tommy hearns.)
As a side note,how do you feel the duran that beat leonard would do against the prime welter robinson over 15 rounds?
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:34 AM   #54
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

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As for jones,yes he was phenomenally gifted,nobody can dispute this,but taking steroids could have increased his level to the point that like ben johnson being transformed from a world class sprinter to the greatest of all time....(time and perfomance wise.) nobody dominated like ben johnson when he was at his best in the 100m,his time is still only 1 hundreth slower than the current world record and he was EASING off before the finish line....Ben johnson could have run 9.75 or even 9.7 and this was back in 88,powell is only just doing this now about 20 years later.....steroids work,no doubt at all.....Especially given the right natural frame and attributes ala jones.....
Can you imagine Ben Johnson with the help of any steroids he can find, coming to the track at 38 years of age, and still being faster than any other runners?
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:37 AM   #55
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

I have him in my top ten p4p look at his performances in his prime and then takes on one of the best welterweights of all time and beats him also when he is way past his prime manages to beat Barkley who was a good fighter not great but after that Barkley still managed to go to 175 and beat Hearn’s so he wasn't done or anything.

For those who don't have him in their top ten p4p I would like to see your list out of interest on who you consider to be above him.
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:44 AM   #56
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Carl lewis won the long jump at 35. Linford christie was the fastest man in the world at 32 and set an indoor world record for the 200m at 35.....Funny,he tested positive as well.....
Do you think jones is a fast as he was ten years ago? If not,then your point is invalid......
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Old 08-06-2007, 12:19 PM   #57
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Do you have examples of 38-years-old fastest runners? Jumping requires more technique than pure athletism (plus some luck as his main opponents had injuries). Lewis "finished eighth in the 100 m final at the Olympic Trials", ie there were 7 men faster than him in USA team alone.
Jones is not as fast as he was ten years ago, but neither is any other man in history between two such ages, without exception.
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Old 08-06-2007, 12:27 PM   #58
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

He's one of the two or three best boxers I ever saw. His accomplishments put him among the best ever. No, he's not overrated.
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Old 08-06-2007, 12:35 PM   #59
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Do you have examples of 38-years-old fastest runners? Jumping requires more technique than pure athletism (plus some luck as his main opponents had injuries). Lewis "finished eighth in the 100 m final at the Olympic Trials", ie there were 7 men faster than him in USA team alone.
Jones is not as fast as he was ten years ago, but neither is any other man in history between two such ages, without exception.
agreed here
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Old 08-06-2007, 01:04 PM   #60
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Duran is underated
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