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Old 08-06-2007, 12:09 PM   #61
enquirer
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Linford christie and carl lewis both had their fastest times in their thirties,so got faster with age,this happens a lot with fast twitch sport such as sprinting and weightliftiing....In weightlifting its even more pronounced as guys in their late thirties and fourties break world records...So lewis and christie were faster 10 years later from when they were in their twenties.....
Jones is faster than who you say? His weight division,all the weights? What? You cant strictly compare boxing speed of punch with sprinting because it not the point to be the fastest puncher to win a fight,wheras it is the point to be the fastest runner in a sprint....
And what comp does jones have to be the current titlest of fastest puncher? No meldrick taylor,leonard,lighter pbf,camacho or such like....Thats like johnson coming back now and competing with no lewis,powell,christie,burrell or atgs,just like facing allen wells for the title of fastest bloke in the world in moscow 1980....
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Old 08-06-2007, 12:14 PM   #62
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Top post....
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Old 08-06-2007, 12:38 PM   #63
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by enquirer
Linford christie and carl lewis both had their fastest times in their thirties,so got faster with age
For bigger men the point after which they start getting slower is usually between 30 and 32 years old. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] is an example of this rule. For Christie it was [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (at 33).

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So lewis and christie were faster 10 years later from when they were in their twenties.....
In this one it's more about methods of training and performing, in general, developing, than them personally.

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Jones is faster than who you say?
Faster than any other light heavyweight in history (of whom the film exists), regardless of age. He is also the fastest middleweight and super middleweight, although those were near or at his peak years. He is possibly the fastest heavyweight in history too on handspeed (at 34 years).

Quote:
You cant strictly compare boxing speed of punch with sprinting because it not the point to be the fastest puncher to win a fight,wheras it is the point to be the fastest runner in a sprint....
One of the goals of any fighter is to deliver a punch faster than their opponent.

Quote:
And what comp does jones have to be the current titlest of fastest puncher? No meldrick taylor,leonard,lighter pbf,camacho or such like....
Leonard had slowed down considerably by the age of 34 (vs Norris he looked very slow). Mayweather (even his young super featherweight version) wasn't as fast as Jones at any weight. Camacho wasn't faster than 1990's Jones either. Only young Meldrick Taylor showed handspeed faster than Jones, but where series of power punches were involved he was slower than Jones too. Even though all these men were smaller than Jones (and smaller men are usually faster).
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Old 08-06-2007, 12:48 PM   #64
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Even if we believe you (and its a big if.) so what? Hes not the best lt heavy in history at the moment,nor was he ever that.....Hes not even the best lt heavy in the world currently,not by a long shot! He has retained some of his speed but lost much of his fighting prowess hey?
He took steroids,maybe thats why hes faster than some of the old timers,thought of that? Many times the faster fighter loses to the better fighter on the night.....Remember johnson and tarver?
You also saying he was faster than ali and patterson at heavy?
Maybe he has very good longevity for the same reasons as hopkins,years of weaker opposition and cherry picking.....Put chemical assistance in there as well.......
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Old 08-06-2007, 01:04 PM   #65
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Head to head at lightweight, he might be number 1 and in my opinion, is number 1, but looking at his resume at that weight, his best wins are over De Jesus and Buchanan. There are other fighters with more big wins at 135 - Benny Leonard and Carlos Ortiz for example.
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Old 08-06-2007, 01:07 PM   #66
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Duran's wins over Dejesus and Ken are on the same level as anything Ortiz did in my opinion.

And unlike Ortiz, Duran didn't lose when it really mattered...in a championship bout.
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Old 08-06-2007, 01:35 PM   #67
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

So you can't come up with 38-years old runner who was faster than all his world-class opponents even if he took steroids or anything, and had been known for his ultra quickness ever since his teens? Maybe he was taking steroids ever since he was born, his mother was feeding him with steroids instead of milk?
Who's the best whatever is irrelevant to handspeed. But nice try nevertheless.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:33 PM   #68
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterion
In his lightweight prime he was amazing to watch, and also in some of his few fights at welterweight. But does his resume justify him being Top5 P4P of all time?

Did he really clean the Lightweight division? He didn't beat contenders of his era like Jimmy Heair, Angel Mayoral, Vicente Saldivar, etc.

Does he deserve to rank high at Welterweight just because of defeating and then losing against Ray Leonard, beating ex Champ Carlos Palomino and a few unranked guys?


His resume against contenders is basically this:

Hiro Kobayashi
Ken Buchanan
Guts Ishimatsu
Saoul Mamby
Esteban De Jesús
Vilomar Fernandez
Ray Lampkin
Edwin Viruet
Edwin Viruet
Esteban De Jesus
Carlos Palomino
Ray Leonard
Luigi Minchillo
Pipino Cuevas (past his best)
Davey Moore (had less than 17 pro fights)
Iran Barkley (incredible win, but Iran wasn't really a "consistent" fighter)

But he also had 6 losses before turning 35 years old (and then had much more Ls):

Esteban De Jesus
Ray Leonard
Wilfred Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns
He makes the top 10p4p,or he makes mine anyway,top 5 may be a bit high.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:48 PM   #69
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

good post mate, interesting set of comparisons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enquirer
Duran did not lose his biggest fights as compared to robinson...
If you look at duran up until the end of 1981 at age 30 he had 86 fights,two losses (one avenged twice.) and 56 stoppage wins. He had also had 17 world title fight and won all but one of them,the leonard rematch...This incredible span lasted 14 years,two original weight divisions and encompassed buchanan,de jesus,ray leonard and palamino,as well as some very good fighters,all while looking superb on film...
Ray robinson had a similar run of 12 years (1940-1952.) which featured three losses (la motta,turpin and maxim,the first two avenged.) the last of which was at 32 against maxim,after which robbie temporarily retired...Robbie had about 130 or so fights in this period and many kos,had 12 world title bouts (7 at welter,four at middle,one at lt heavy.) of which he lost two....
He beat hall of famers gavilan,la motta and graziano in this run....
I dont see a massive difference between the two,bearing in mind that after these runs both of these men won good fights and lost good fights,both sustained many losses after 30.....
Why hold robertos past his prime and unnatural weight losses against him while discounting robbies? Robbie also fought and lost a lot at middle which was close to his best weight of welter/lt middle,whereas roberto sustained many losses at lt middle,middle and supermiddle which was way past his best of lightweight/welter....
Roberto won titles at three original weight classes (four including lt middle.) robbie won two and failed a the the third weight and never tried again......Cant robbies retiring in the corner against maxim be compared to durans no mas? How many guys considered no1 all time retired on their stool in a world title fight? (devils advocate by the way!.)
Anyway,durans run at lightweight/welter is as good as robbies run til the maxim fight......Disuss....
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:52 PM   #70
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

In defending his Olympic 100m title from 1992, Linford Christie made the final of the 1996 Olympics aged 37 (i.e top 8 in the world). Unfortunately, he tore his hamstring in the lead up and ran badly by his standards . But, his form was good enough for 3rd or 4th IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmt
agreed here
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:50 AM   #71
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

To appreciate Duran you must watch his filmed fights against top competition. Hopefully, that eliminates the pesky but unavoidable factor, "Oh, sure, but were the 1970s lightweights as good as the 1930s, 1990s, etc.?"

Nobody will ever agree on that factor and, besides, there aren't enough good quality films available from each decade for a fair comparison. Fact is, many of the expert opinions about certain top fights are not based on first-hand accounts of Fighter A vs. Fighter B, but are hypotheses drawn from having seen the performances of Fighter A vs. Fighter C and Fighter B vs. Fighter C.

We all know the cliche, "Styles make fights," and fighters aren't seeded like tennis players or scheduled like team sports. Between scoring for boxing, gymnastics and figure skating, we could make a helluva lotta fudge.

The way Duran relentlessly, unceasingly ran down and mowed over top competition in the lightweight division is undeniable. The usual terms like "pressured" and "stalked" hardly do justice to Duran's style back then. You can actually watch his opponents wilt under the pressure while Duran slowed down only to sit between rounds.

When I first watched him (a live televised bout against Ray Lampkin) I thought he was just a ferocious slugger - a damned impressive ferocious slugger, sure. But it wasn't until later that I appreciated the way he moved in quickly behind the jab and avoided punches with quick twists of the head, his lank hair flinging sweat in halos. His footwork was excellent and he had the complete arsenal of punches.

How would he have ranked against earlier generations of lightweight greats? Who knows. I haven't seen enough film of those boxers against competition comparable to Duran. I'm confident that Duran would easily blow by every modern lightweight except Chavez, Whitaker and Mayweather. I'd call it even between Chavez and Durn. I'd give Whitaker an edge over Duran compared with Mayweather-Duran; I think Mayweather's defensive tactics would work against him with Durn. Moving straight backward (tho' he does this less often now), the shoulder roll, etc. I think Duran would outwork him for a slight edge. Whitaker would give Duran more trouble.

Oddly enough the P4P riddle seems easier to answer. I'd rank Duran easily in the Top 10 P4P if he retains every capability he had at his lightweight prime. Even during his first bout against SRL, I thought Duran seemed bloated, musclebound and sluggish compared with Duran against Lampkin, Buchanan, Kobayashi and others.

But those are the vagaries of P4P and simple Top 10 lists. Do we really believe that a bantamweight Muhammad Ali, identical in every other respect, would be considered The Greatest... bantamweight? Not with that style and recklessness, not against men who were equally quick and hit harder.

Oh, well, this is a fun conversation anyway.
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:57 AM   #72
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

BTW, the issue of Roy Jones, Jr.'s athleticism and punching power comes up occasionally...

While I've never sparred with Roy (I was well past my boxing days when I met him), I did chat and shake hands with him. Roy has very soft hands, a basketball player's hands. Not surprising since I think he'd rather play ball, fish and mess with his roosters and dogs than box.

Anyway, soft hands don't make for "hard punchers," not in the sense that non-boxers think of it. Roy is a perfect example of Sugar Ray Robinson's comment that it's the punches you don't see coming that get you. A prime Roy was so fast, it was the bolt from the blue that kayoed opponents.

Breaking Virgil Hill's rib with a single right was an exception. I don't want to completely dismiss Roy's power - anybody his size in such good condition can hit hard. But before the Hill body shot KO, Roy wasn't really known as a body puncher. Maybe Virgil just wasn't wary enough and didn't anticipate a serious body blow from Roy. Again, assuming you're in condition, it's the body blows you don't expect that get you, not the one's you're ready for. Consider Hopkin's one shot to the liver KO of Oscar DLH.
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Old 08-07-2007, 04:45 AM   #73
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

[quote=Lex]

Anyway, soft hands don't make for "hard punchers," not in the sense that non-boxers think of it.
quote]

I'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate on this for me please?

PS-How did you find Roy as a person? Was he friendly, smug, arrogant, charming etc.?
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:13 AM   #74
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
So you can't come up with 38-years old runner who was faster than all his world-class opponents even if he took steroids or anything, and had been known for his ultra quickness ever since his teens? Maybe he was taking steroids ever since he was born, his mother was feeding him with steroids instead of milk?
Who's the best whatever is irrelevant to handspeed. But nice try nevertheless.
Tell me about these apples

Steroids will certainly "enhance" hand speed if used in conjunction with the correct training, which isn't exactly difficult. It's a myth that bigger muscles slow you down and all the usual crap. Look at the legs on 100m sprinters, then compare them to the marathon runners. Properly gained muscle gives more power for acceleration yada yada. Steroids let you train harder for longer, and one can actually put the onus fast twitch muscle fibre.

Not buying into the Jones/roids debate, no doubt at all Jones has freak handspeed from the start. Steroids can however gain you power and very possibly speed at the same time. Roids positive effect on training will likely allow you to retain handspeed later into a fight as well.
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:26 AM   #75
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Senya,the competition in the 100m is such nowadays that it is very unlikely for a guy these days to even retain an olympic title,never mind start in his twenties and stay till 38....I dont see the point you are trying to make...Bear in mind that there isnt much comp from the other boxers of todday for the 'fastest hands title',If meldrick taylor,leonard,camacho or some other guys were around today your arguement would be invalid,even if floyd were still at 130 he might lose....He may be the fastest today but thats because there is no comp today....I imagine chrisitie could still be the fastest today if all the other guys were absent,or the comp was very low.....
Allen wells won in 1980 with a time of 10.19 i think, because the americans boycotted the games and so the field was very weak....
That time wouldnt even get you eight in a high class field today...
Foreman winning the title at 45,was that an undisputed title? Do you think foreman could have won the undisputed title v holyfield at 45? (no,because he lost clearly anyway.) Being the best in a weak era is not as impressive as you make out,especially when the point of boxing is to win,not just to have the fastest hands.....whats the point in being the fastest boxer when you are not the best boxer in your current division,and you got easily beaten by tarver and johnson for the title,who are not even champs now????????????
Shall we give props to the boxer with the best 100m sprint time and call him the best boxer in the world and an amazing specimem?
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