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Old 08-07-2007, 05:42 PM   #91
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Originally Posted by NickHudson
In defending his Olympic 100m title from 1992, Linford Christie made the final of the 1996 Olympics aged 37 (i.e top 8 in the world). Unfortunately, he tore his hamstring in the lead up and ran badly by his standards . But, his form was good enough for 3rd or 4th IMO.
Assisted by what? Shades of Flo Jo!
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:18 PM   #92
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Originally Posted by Asterion
In his lightweight prime he was amazing to watch, and also in some of his few fights at welterweight. But does his resume justify him being Top5 P4P of all time?

Did he really clean the Lightweight division? He didn't beat contenders of his era like Jimmy Heair, Angel Mayoral, Vicente Saldivar, etc.

Does he deserve to rank high at Welterweight just because of defeating and then losing against Ray Leonard, beating ex Champ Carlos Palomino and a few unranked guys?

His resume against contenders is basically this:

Hiro Kobayashi
Ken Buchanan
Guts Ishimatsu
Saoul Mamby
Esteban De Jesús
Vilomar Fernandez
Ray Lampkin
Edwin Viruet
Edwin Viruet
Esteban De Jesus
Carlos Palomino
Ray Leonard
Luigi Minchillo
Pipino Cuevas (past his best)
Davey Moore (had less than 17 pro fights)
Iran Barkley (incredible win, but Iran wasn't really a "consistent" fighter)

But he also had 6 losses before turning 35 years old (and then had much more Ls):

Esteban De Jesus
Ray Leonard
Wilfred Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns
Duran doesn't belong at #1 and probably not at #2 either. No Mas hurts his legacy. His inconsistency hurts him. If not for these two negatives, he'd be higher. If he eaked Hagler and beat Hearns, I'd put him over Robinson.

When he stepped into the ring at Montreal, his record was 67-1, 56 KOs. That is a serious record and you mentioned several good to excellent fighters he defeated. Buchanan, DeJesus, Lampkin, and probably Ishimatsu would have been far more notable if not for Duran's dominance in the LW division. The detractors out here should ask themselves where they would put Duran had he died in plane crash after beating Leonard. He would have been almost myth.

But that was 1980. Duran fought on... and in so doing he was inconsistent, which I think keeps him from the very top. But there is gold in the 80s and even the 90s... when inspired, he beat monsters.

I put him at #3. It depends on what the measures are though. Part of the reason for that is the measures I use. They include these:

* dominance in his natural division
* ring generalship/skill level
* quality of competition
* longevity
* performance against "larger men."

Duran scores very, very highly in these categories.

Both "longevity" and "performace against larger men" goes far in revealing the level of skill in a great fighter because everything else is stripped away and you see the essentials. Well, Duran showed more than anyone this side of Langford.

Let me put it this way.... Duran had NO BUSINESS defeating an elite welterweight in Ray Leonard. He had NO BUSINESS fighting Hagler at 25 pounds out of his prime weight, inside (not outside a la Ray) the perimeter (where it was always dangerous) and taking him 15 rounds while Hagler was in his prime and had knocked out his previous 7(?) opponents. Duran had NO BUSINESS defeating Barkley who was larger and arguably stronger than even Hagler when Duran was a full TEN YEARS after his prime and 21 years into his career. Iran Barkley by the way just handed Hearns the most devestating KO of his career.

Damn it, I thought he defeated Camacho (who was a slick boxer and mover) when he was 45 years old and got ripped off.

We forget that this was a damn lightweight years past his prime, competing way out of his division. He had neither the height nor the frame to allow for it like most others. He wasn't even a large lightweight like De La Hoya. Duran was completely physically outgunned by everyone he fought from 1980 on. Commentator/trainer Gil Clancy observed during the Monroe Brooks Jr. WW fight (Dec. 197 that "Duran's frame is too short and squared to compete against middleweights". Listen to Clancy during the Barkley fight 10 years later and keep in mind that Barkley had the frame of a light heavyweight although he fought as a middleweight. (By the way, Barkley was at his absolute best for this fight and if you watch him before and after Feb 1989, it is very clear.)

Clancy was in complete shock.

During the ref's instructions, Duran is looking up into the sky at Barkley's chin. He was a small man and we forget that. Can anyone see even the great Chavez posing a real challenge to Hagler? I sure as hell don't. I don't see Chavez faring too well against Barkley either.

Chavez is an all-time, top 20 great at the very least in my opinion. Duran was the same height as Chavez and had an inch shorter reach. And yet Duran's accomplishments dwarf Chavez's.

These nay-sayers out here need to do their homework.

PS/ Asterion, I think that Duran's "ranking" at WW is only head-to-head. At least, that is what I've noticed. Leonard would be tough for any WW in history this side of Robinson to defeat, and the idea of a LW doing it is very surprising.

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Old 08-08-2007, 03:30 AM   #93
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Originally Posted by Mendoza
Duran is the only HOF fighter I can think of who was KO’d by one punch and quit in a fight without a major injury.
Sonny Liston.
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:46 AM   #94
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

What fight are you referring to here?

Originally Posted by Mendoza
Sometimes it takes a lot of ***** to speak the truth about a popular fighter. I want to be up front by saying that Duran is not among my favorite fighters, but at the same time I want to be fair with him in this thread. Duran as a light weight is not over rated. He is an ALL time top 5 light weight. A speical fighter. He simply was too strong ( but not a big puncher ) and active for most light weights. He had an under rated defense too. Fans love Duran for his scowl in the ring. However, I do think Duran as a welter and middle weight is vastly over rated. Duran is the only HOF fighter I can think of who was KO’d by one punch and quit in a fight without a major injury. I’ve always felt he was a dirty fighter. I believe that Roberto threw an intentional low blow vs Buchanan to win the lightweight crown. While Duran was up on the cards, winning the title this way is dishonorable. Buchanan never got the re-match.
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:56 PM   #95
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Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

I'm 49 years old, been a serious boxing fan since I was 15 and Roberto Duran is the best fighter I ever saw. Period!
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